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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Could someone provide the meaning of each of the sanskrit words in the following water offering mantra?

OM SARWA TATHAGATA APARIWARA ARGHAM PRATITSA PUDZA MEGHA AMUDRA SAPARANA AH HUNG

Thank you


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:44 pm 
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Boy, thats a good one.

Did you get that off Envisionation by any chance?

I believe that prayer is from the Nyingma tradition - not that that makes a whole lotta difference or anything.

I can't offer a translation, but I think Tathagata means "awakened one". Argham is drinking water.

I'd like to know what it translates to as well. I wonder of there's a mudra that accompanies it. The eight offerings (argham, padyam, pushpe, dupe, etc) each have their own mudra.

When I set up offerings I repeat OM AH HUNG with each offering.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:02 pm 
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This is the fancy way of doing it in the Nyingma.
Dudjom Lingpa wrote a really nice little prayer
that includes a mantra like this. Terma actually.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:14 am 
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Yes, I got it here

http://envisionation.org/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=80


Yep I know the words Sarva Tathagata - all the awakened ones/buddhas
and Argham means water. That's all I got so far.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:37 am 
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That's the one! Kyabje Dudjom Lingpa's vajra speech
warm with Dakini's breath, and amazing to recite
daily or when accumulating.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:03 am 
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SAPARIWARA -- retinue

ARGHAM -- drinking water.

PRATITSA -- receive

PUDZA -- offering

MEGHA -- cloud

SAMUDRA -- ocean

SAPARANA --spreads

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:35 am 
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Thank you!

So should it be SAPARIWARA or APARIWARA?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:03 am 
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dakini_boi wrote:
Thank you!

So should it be SAPARIWARA or APARIWARA?



Saparivara.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:13 am 
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...pronounced, by most Tibetans, "Sapariwara" as the V becomes a "W" (and is usually written with a བ་ (ba)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:22 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
...pronounced, by most Tibetans, "Sapariwara" as the V becomes a "W" (and is usually written with a བ་ (ba)


Thank you. On the topic of transliteration, why is the Sanskrit व (va/wa) often transliterated into Tibetan as བ when the Tibetan script has ཝ (va/wa) specifically for the purpose? ex. Skt. Vajra वज्र becomes Tib. བཛྲ Bajra - not ཝཛྲ Vajra. This is not a question of pronunciation, but of transliteration - other sounds that are pronounced differently in Tibetan are still transliterated according to the Sanskrit. Is this just an error made in early translations that was repeated until it became convention? Anyone know?


While I'm at it, in the water offering mantra above, where is the stress placed in "saparana"? is it "saPArana"?

Thanks for continued help :namaste:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:42 pm 
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dakini_boi wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
...pronounced, by most Tibetans, "Sapariwara" as the V becomes a "W" (and is usually written with a བ་ (ba)


Thank you. On the topic of transliteration, why is the Sanskrit व (va/wa) often transliterated into Tibetan as བ when the Tibetan script has ཝ (va/wa) specifically for the purpose? ex. Skt. Vajra वज्र becomes Tib. བཛྲ Bajra - not ཝཛྲ Vajra. This is not a question of pronunciation, but of transliteration - other sounds that are pronounced differently in Tibetan are still transliterated according to the Sanskrit. Is this just an error made in early translations that was repeated until it became convention? Anyone know?


While I'm at it, in the water offering mantra above, where is the stress placed in "saparana"? is it "saPArana"?

Thanks for continued help :namaste:



བ་is can be pronounced either as ba or as wa in Tibetan. In Amdo dialect which is very ancient all བ instances are pronounced wa.

Also in Nepal where most Tibetan translators learned to pronounce mantras, Sanskrit "va" is pronounced "ba". It is the same in Kashmir. Sakya Pandita notes this regional variation in his "how to pronounce mantras" guidebook.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:16 pm 
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Dakini_boy,
Seems I only ever hear SAaa pariwara


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:35 pm 
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I agree...though if I recall correctly there's actually no syllabic stress in Sanskrit? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Also, there have been some studies or indications that the "W' or even the "B" sound for "V" sound is actually closer to the "REAL" pronounciation back in the daze....possible the Tibetans have it right when they say "Benza" for Vajra.........or so I've heard.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:36 pm 
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Thank you Ngodrup

How about the 3rd to last word - Saparana?

Yes, in Sanskrit there are stressed syllables - long vowels vs. short vowels.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:12 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
I agree...though if I recall correctly there's actually no syllabic stress in Sanskrit? Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Also, there have been some studies or indications that the "W' or even the "B" sound for "V" sound is actually closer to the "REAL" pronounciation back in the daze....possible the Tibetans have it right when they say "Benza" for Vajra.........or so I've heard.

B=! V
E=! A
N=! J
Z=! R
A= A
Hm 1 out of 5 (or possibly 2)... :tongue:
BTW, I thought it was sparana, not saparana? Or are they different words?

In any case, according to my teacher you should pronounce the mantras the way you received them.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Okay....
I agree, Pero, with following one's teacher's pronounciation.

As for "Vajra," it's an example of Tibetan "pronounciation rules" being applied to Tibetanized Sanskrit.

V becomes b, as Tibetan does not have "Fricatives" (F, V)....the "A" vowel becomes an "eh" sound because, in Tibetan, that's what happens when the "A" vowel is followed by certain consonants. The "J" turning into a "Dz" in Tibetan--I'm frankly not sure how that occurs. And the "R" is pronounced, usually....but in Tibetan a final "R" sound can often drop off...

Maybe someone else who understands Tibetanized Sanksrit better can help out..

Another, better, example, is "padme" which is spelled that way in Tibetan characters...but it's pronounced PEh-May. The "d" is silent, but lengthens the "a" vowel, as per Tibetan rules.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:43 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
Maybe someone else who understands Tibetanized Sanksrit better can help out..

Another, better, example, is "padme" which is spelled that way in Tibetan characters...but it's pronounced PEh-May. The "d" is silent, but lengthens the "a" vowel, as per Tibetan rules.

Something just occured to me... Why don't they pronounce Padmasambhava as Pemasambhava? Or at least I don't remember hearing it like that...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:47 pm 
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I've heard it like that......though more commonly, "Pema Jungne," eh?

Which reminds of a rather annoying goof that's fairly common: It's Chakrasamvara, folks, not "Chakrasambhava."

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:30 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
I've heard it like that......though more commonly, "Pema Jungne," eh?

Ah didn't think of that.

Quote:
Which reminds of a rather annoying goof that's fairly common: It's Chakrasamvara, folks, not "Chakrasambhava."

I've always wondered about that because I always see it written Chakrasamvara but heard it pronounced Chakrasambhava.

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