Sects and Sectarianism

[Heruka]

human realm is a "shared human karmic vision" so no, your wrong.

Human realm has many beings. No evidence that, lacking inherent existence, phenomena are perceived in the same way by even two of them.

simply put, a house with a roof, or some type of dwelling is a shared human karmic vision, we have that need for shelter, to maintain a karmic body (another shared karmic vision).
We would see a home, a cow would see a place to shLt. A cow does not share a human vision.

[Blue Garuda]

human realm is a "shared human karmic vision" so no, your wrong.

Human realm has many beings. No evidence that, lacking inherent existence, phenomena are perceived in the same way by even two of them.

simply put, a house with a roof, or some type of dwelling is a shared human karmic vision, we have that need for shelter, to maintain a karmic body. We would see a home, a cow would see a place to shLt. A cow does not share a human vision.

Yes, but even with a shared name for a colour like 'red', which we agree upon, there is no way of determining if the red I see is the red you see in terms of sensory input, let alone what our minds are interpreting.

'Karmic vision' ? Karma is action, vision is sense. Neither can be shared.

Equally, if we use a name, some may see that as representing 'demon', other as representing 'Buddha'. Understanding that and accepting it, we avoid suffering.

[Heruka]

'Karmic vision' ? Karma is action, vision is sense. Neither can be shared.

Equally, if we use a name, some may see that as representing 'demon', other as representing 'Buddha'. Understanding that and accepting it, we avoid suffering.

Vision in a sense of "experience". Lets take your buddha as a demon example. From a sutric understanding it is important to make definitions, this is good, that is bad etc, as is proper for those on stages and paths of merit and wisdom, of purification, and sutra style of proceeding. In tantric terms, we do not reject anything as good and bad, we simply use it all as wisdom and merit. a simple way to put it, in sutra style, a gold statue of the buddha is object of reverence and a gold ash tray is something we do not place offerings in. Yet in tantric way, we can see that a gold buddha or a gold ash tray is no difference, we can enjoy offering flowers to statue and also offer a cigarette we have enjoyed into a gold ash tray. we can also melt down the gold statue and make an ash tray, the object has changed but not the gold. Like dharma, it is the gold that matters, not the object. the rest is just karmic vision.

sectarian attitudes then come from an idea that this is good and this is bad, a sutric attitude of not allowing the object to change from a buddha to an ash tray, this is where the fundementalism creeps in. Nothing stays the same, all things change. It is clinging to the way things are, the attachment and aversion that brings about the suffering of sectarianism. Instead of recognizing that the gold remains gold, no matter what it melts into.

[LastLegend]

Shared karma for example the Japanese disaster which killed people who happened to be at the same place and the same time. This is my understanding of shared karma. Hmmm, also we have messed up the earth so bad, I guess we will experience results from this act also.

[Heruka]

was there a story about many sakya clans people that were killed in a battle with a rival kingdom, and when asked about it the buddha said that it was due to the fact that long ago they caught many fish and it was because of that that the people were killed in many numbers?

not sure.

memory bad!

[Heruka]

Shared karma for example the Japanese disaster which killed people who happened to be at the same place and the same time. This is my understanding of shared karma. Hmmm, also we have messed up the earth so bad, I guess we will experience results from this act also.

this is a loaded question, many conditions and unknows to know.

i dont know, i only know it is better to help the living than to mourn the dead at this time.

[LastLegend]

was there a story about many sakya clans people that were killed in a battle with a rival kingdom, and when asked about it the buddha said that it was due to the fact that long ago they caught many fish and it was because of that that the people were killed in many numbers?

not sure.

memory bad!

Yes sirrr

Indeed collective act leads to shared karma

this is a loaded question, many conditions and unknows to know.

i dont know, i only know it is better to help the living than to mourn the dead at this time.

Wordd

[gregkavarnos]

Indeed collective act leads to shared karma

Hog wash. The following is a quote from SN 3.4, Piya Sutta: Dear

If you hold yourself dear
then don't fetter yourself
with evil,
for happiness isn't easily gained
by one who commits
a wrong-doing.

When seized by the End-maker
as you abandon the human state,
what's truly your own?
What do you take along when you go?
What follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves?

Both the merit & evil
that you as a mortal
perform here:
that's what's truly your own,
what you take along when you go;
that's what follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves.

SN 3.20, Aputtaka Sutta: Heirless

What you do
with body, speech, or mind:
that is yours;
taking
that you go;
that's
your follower,
like a shadow
that never leaves.

I could go on for ages but it would get rather boring and I think the point is quite clear. There are no references, except for the vague reference that Heruka made, which I have also heard quoted as a vague reference, in any of the Buddhas, and other enlightened masters teachings, about the presence of shared karma vipakka.
I asked my lama one time about this and he said: Even in a battle situation where one group is fighting another group for a supposed common end, each individual in the group will undergo different outcomes because: a. none of the individuals have the exact same motivation for their actions, b. none of the individuals will feel exactly the same way about the outcome of their actions, c. none of the individuals will execute exactly the same actions. AND (this is my addition), each of the individuals has already accumulated karma from past actions which has yet to ripen, so again the outcomes will differ.

[LastLegend]

Indeed collective act leads to shared karma

Hog wash. The following is a quote from SN 3.4, Piya Sutta: Dear

If you hold yourself dear
then don't fetter yourself
with evil,
for happiness isn't easily gained
by one who commits
a wrong-doing.

When seized by the End-maker
as you abandon the human state,
what's truly your own?
What do you take along when you go?
What follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves?

Both the merit & evil
that you as a mortal
perform here:
that's what's truly your own,
what you take along when you go;
that's what follows behind you
like a shadow
that never leaves.

SN 3.20, Aputtaka Sutta: Heirless

What you do
with body, speech, or mind:
that is yours;
taking
that you go;
that's
your follower,
like a shadow
that never leaves.

I could go on for ages but it would get rather boring and I think the point is quite clear. There are no references, except for the vague reference that Heruka made, which I have also heard quoted as a vague reference, in any of the Buddhas, and other enlightened masters teachings, about the presence of shared karma vipakka.
I asked my lama one time about this and he said: Even in a battle situation where one group is fighting another group for a supposed common end, each individual in the group will undergo different outcomes because: a. none of the individuals have the exact same motivation for their actions, b. none of the individuals will feel exactly the same way about the outcome of their actions, c. none of the individuals will execute exactly the same actions. AND (this is my addition), each of the individuals has already accumulated karma from past actions which has yet to ripen, so again the outcomes will differ.

ok

[Tilopa]

Hog wash.

I don't think so. All the teachings I have received on this subject have included an explanation of 'collective karma' where groups of individuals share the same general experience. For example all those affected by the recent earthquake and tsunami or the Tibetans being invaded and oppressed by the Chinese. For sure individual karma affects each persons specific experience so that some die, some don't and so forth but why does something like that happen to a group, tribe, family or whatever? Collective karma.

[Astus]

I recommend discussing group karma in the topic Group Karma as it's not related to this thread.

[muni]

If the "me who knows, the me who understands" grasps to its' identity like being Theravada, Mahayana, being high - low; there is merely satisfying idea. Waaaaah! Can you imagine I let go my correct elaborations? I should lose myself!

Buddhism. Sectarian = grasping.

karmic condition.

[muni]

[

Sectarianism is alive and well and it isnt going anywhere any time soon.

When there seems to be one lower, we can wait. When there seems to be one higher, garlic soup should reduce mountain sickness. Sectarian is the own suffering experience of narrowness between our ears. Illusions don't come, don't go when we don't feed them, don't cling to them.