Do you really think existence is an illusion

[gregkavarnos]

I draw your attention to the text in my signature:

"If you know the sameness underlying dissimilarity, then you will surely not create battles by opposing differences to each other for their mutual elimination.
If you know the dissimilarity in spite of sameness, then you surely should learn to imbue yourself with good influences uncontaminated by egotism, so as to transform evil."
Chih-hsu Ou-i The Buddhist I Ching

My dear Rael one-sidedly positing that there are ONLY similarities and in ones eagerness to seek similarity purposefully overlooking existing differences can be a form of dogmatism as well.

Be careful with where you are going with this one!

[Pero]

Buddhist I ching? That sounds interesting, can you say more about it Greg?

[gregkavarnos]

You can downlaod it free from here - http://buddhisttorrents.blogspot.com/20 ... ching.html

[conebeckham]

Getting back on topic....In the Middle Way of the Mahayana, "existence" is that which appears but is empty....therefore it is illusory, as are the sentient beings who (mis)perceive it.

In the context of Highest Yoga Tantra, that which appears to us as sentient beings is mistaken, deluded appearance. The appearance of the Ultimate, which is the "product" of the Completion Stage, however, is actually the true manifestation of wisdom, pristine awareness, the primordial nature. It is nonconceptual and beyond duality, yet nevertheless it conforms with aspects such as forms, sounds, and so on. It is "revealed" through the practice of the two stages, and, in particular, the Completion Stage. In this regard, one can speak of a variety of techniques as Completion Stage techniques, but they all can be condensed to the essential point which is Great Bliss/Compassion and Great Emptiness primordially inseperable. That Bliss which is subject to change, and which can be produced by various means, is not the Great Bliss of the Completion Stage.

From the point of view of Mahamudra's Four Yogas, here is Milarepa's song, (translated by Nicole Riggs, taken from:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/milarepas-mahamudra.html

I bow down at the feet of the supreme lama!

It’s the mind fixated on objects that causes samsara.
If you recognize as spontaneous
The luminous self-awareness, free of fixation,
You’ll taste the fruit of the first yoga, one-pointedness.

Some talk and talk about union, yet their meditation is all conceptual,
They talk and talk about cause and effect, yet their actions are flawed,
Such petty, deluded meditations
Have no place in the yoga of one-pointedness.

Luminous mind itself, free of fixation,
Is naturally blissful, without constructs.
If you recognize your very essence to be as clear as space,
You’ll taste the fruit of the second yoga, simplicity.

Some talk and talk about “no elaboration,” but they elaborate plenty,
They talk and talk about the “inexpressible,” but they’ve got plenty of terminology.
Such self-obsessed meditations
Have no place in the yoga of simplicity.

In the dharma body, appearance and emptiness are not two,
Samsara and nirvana are experienced as one.
If you know the Buddha and sentient beings to have the same identity,
As many have said: that’s definitely the third yoga, one-taste.

Some talk and talk about “oneness,” but they still want to make a point.
Such hazy confusion
Has no place in the yoga of one-taste.

Conceptual thoughts are in nature great awareness;
Cause and effect are non-dual, spontaneous.
They’re the three bodies,
And knowing this is the fruit of the fourth yoga, non-meditation.

Some talk and talk about non-meditation, but how active their mind is!
They talk and talk about “clear light,” but how thick their meditation is!
Such platitudes
Have no place in the yoga of non-meditation.

[Rael]

I draw your attention to the text in my signature:

"If you know the sameness underlying dissimilarity, then you will surely not create battles by opposing differences to each other for their mutual elimination.
If you know the dissimilarity in spite of sameness, then you surely should learn to imbue yourself with good influences uncontaminated by egotism, so as to transform evil."
Chih-hsu Ou-i The Buddhist I Ching

My dear Rael one-sidedly positing that there are ONLY similarities and in ones eagerness to seek similarity purposefully overlooking existing differences can be a form of dogmatism as well.

Be careful with where you are going with this one!

what ? what? do you think i'm from Minsk Kapinsk?...I know my way around...

[Rael]

completion stage yoga is not exlusive to Buddhist practice....ok I've tried HIC ing myself to sukavati and that is exlusive.....i think.....

There are certainly non-Buddhist yogas that superficially resemble Buddhist completion stage very closely. However, Buddhist completion stage depends on (1) faith and refuge in the Three Jewels and Three Roots, (2) receiving empowerment, transmission, and oral instruction from a Buddhist guru, (3) an understanding of emptiness as taught in Mahayana (i.e. either Madhyamaka or Cittamatra), and (4) cultivation of a deep meditative connection to a Buddha, which mirrors one's own true nature. These aspects and Buddhas are only found in Buddhism, therefore completion stage Vajrayana is exclusive to Buddhism. Even though the aspects worked with in completion stage practice are intrinsic to all human bodies, the difference between generating some mundane bliss and experiences and actually realizing emptiness are the interdependence created between a Yidam (a Buddha), one's own latent enlightened potential, and the pointing out of that nature by a realized guru; also essential are the instructions on the finer details of how Vajrayana Buddhism describes the subtle body and the key points of manipulating it properly, as well as the Mahayana view of emptiness that will eliminate fabrication and grasping to what's experienced. So again, this depends on Buddhism. No other system is quite the same.

first up Pema...without your compassion and energy you put into this ..i cannot learn...nor can i explore what i believe to be true...

people have just blatantly stated i'm wrong...i don't know what i'm talking about and well ...especially in this medium that goes south.....

thanks for staying with me......

sometimes like Peter Gabriel ..i talk in pictures not with words ...overloaded with everything we said and did.......


but that doesn't get me off the hook does it......

ok.....here goes....

There is nothing unnatural or supernatural that becomes of completion stage practice.
there is nothing there that is owned by anyone...hence my dogma rant......

there is nothing there that isn't there for everyone to access and become.....

it's like discovering the internal organs for the first time with great skill and trying to own the rights to them.....

I don't think that was our Lord's intent.....

your post made me feel like you belittle everyone tackling this outside of Buddhism..like it is exclusive and is somehow owned by Buddhist Control...

As I said the teachings of emptiness and impermanence and compassion and all the Great Buddhist Doctrine and Study and poems and song and Mantra ....add to the outcome.....

but the outcome is the same.....

ok i will concede the fact that one would not be considered a Bodhisatva Buddha .....imbued with compassion....

but that being ,if he or she is compassion bent in the first place, and of the same nature as these Buddhists. who take upon themselves the completion stage....will achieve this without the benefit of Buddhism...Buddhism does not own the copyrights....the Catholic Church tried in vane to own God.....nuff said...you get what i believe to be.....

wait i have a question !!!!!!

Does anyone have any knowledge of a person that went through the completion stage practices without actually being a compassionate being....


there was a story Kalden Geshe La used to tell us....

when he was a young monk there was this older monk that would come around.....one day in front of all the children monks he blew a Mantra into his hand and blew it at a bird and the bird fell dead....
he was chased away from the monastery .....


so do you think completion stage can be done by someone evil and they also will fully realize impermanence and sunyata?

Ok so they won't be called Buddha....but they will be equal in power and knowledge....


and....there is still my belief that one can accomplish this without actual Buddhist training...although i think Buddhism is a safer technique to produce nice completion stage beings...

[conebeckham]

One can accomplish many things without Buddhist training, Rael....including inducing "energies" and such by pranayama and asanas, etc. But that is not the Completion Stage according to the BuddhaDharma.

[Rael]

One can accomplish many things without Buddhist training, Rael....including inducing "energies" and such by pranayama and asanas, etc. But that is not the Completion Stage according to the BuddhaDharma.

ok so you got me on the word / label issue....

do you see though the more important aspect to all this....

So Buddhist are going to try and continue to make claim to that which no one can make claim to.....

think of the Paradigm and break it....

you have a sectarian threads.. a mahayana thervada thread...

this topic is one and the same.....

there is something wrong if you can't see that the stuff these words and labels is made of....is universal...and that using the old Roman catholic edicts like theirs is the only true path to the pearly gates....is not real anymore in this world....

Lets put a wall around the exiled Buddhism of Tibet.....lets own the rights to the knowledge and dismiss anyone else that actually is doing the same thing......

[Blue Garuda]

Rael.


You're accusing people of sectarianism, of rejecting your proposal that other sects and religions perform and attain the same as Completion Stage.

So instead of telling them they are wrong, without offering any reasons, please provide evidence that you are right, and support your claims.

In simple sentences please explain to me how others are doing 'the same'.

maitri

Yeshe

[Rael]

Rael.


You're accusing people of sectarianism, of rejecting your proposal that other sects and religions perform and attain the same as Completion Stage.

So instead of telling them they are wrong, without offering any reasons, please provide evidence that you are right, and support your claims.

In simple sentences please explain to me how others are doing 'the same'.

maitri

Yeshe

gladly ...but i need the mods explicit approval of posting that which has been defined as not allowed....

i can show you quite easily show you the Armour ,the channels, everything in Holy Alchemy...true this is supposed to be secret...but i don't think so....thats some aristocratic con to maintain some sort of power...

i could also show you street level completion stage...handed down by experience word of mouth instance....

and at the same time use completion stage Buddhist teachings to compare....

one thing.....

it's for everyone....or not at all.....

pm thing.....forget it......


i did not accuse people of sectarianism per say...just compared ....

you can't tell me what i know is wrong....and say this is only buddhist stuff....when it is universal....

it's like the Jews laying claim to the Star of David as their own......almost....lol

[Blue Garuda]

Rael

You are tellling members that we are wrong when they explain to you what Completion Stage is, and so far you have not backed up your assertion with one single example of an equivalent practice.

Just do it.

Mods are quite capable of editing anything in breach of ToS, but I can't see how factual evidence of similarity is a problem.

Please go ahead.

[Rael]

Rael

You are tellling members that we are wrong when they explain to you what Completion Stage is, and so far you have not backed up your assertion with one single example of an equivalent practice.

Just do it.

Mods are quite capable of editing anything in breach of ToS, but I can't see how factual evidence of similarity is a problem.

Please go ahead.

where have i said anything of the kind....i have never said one solitary slovo that what you know about completion stage is wrong....i have not read anything ...

now as far a Buddhist having the ownership of it...sorry to burst your bubble....

You get the mods to allow for completion stage practices to be posted...i shall mirror them with street lineage and Holy Alchemy.....

there are people that just know what to do.....you do realize this....

their Armour , their protection rites might look different...but when it come to the actual process, it is the same.....

i'm amused at the protectionist attitude i interpreted here....and i'm not referring to keeping the ToS

[Rael]

I have to admit one thing that i took for granted in Buddhist Dharma...the emphasis on developing Bodhiccita...before attempting such endeavors ...

I think this is unique to Buddhism....
Maybe thats what makes it different...and i did say this earlier on if anyone was listening.....

but then again warnings are in all of these teachings...

they teach about pride and egocentric desires.....

Even Star Wars teaches about the dark side....

it's quite common in spiritual matters to relish the good....

anyway....

what aboput that Big question....does anyone know of evil completion stage monks who did the whole deal....

[LastLegend]

It is like a dream, if you never wake up from your dream, I guess everything you experience is real. But if the dream is short and you awake from it, then it is not real. Consider Dependent Origination which talks about the prolonged practice of ignorance.

[gregkavarnos]

It is like a dream, if you never wake up from your dream, I guess everything you experience is real. But if the dream is short and you awake from it, then it is not real. Consider Dependent Origination which talks about the prolonged practice of ignorance.

Ignorance is not a practice it is a condition.

[LastLegend]

It is like a dream, if you never wake up from your dream, I guess everything you experience is real. But if the dream is short and you awake from it, then it is not real. Consider Dependent Origination which talks about the prolonged practice of ignorance.

Ignorance is not a practice it is a condition.

ok

[muni]

It is hard to not grasp with both hands the offered apprehended intellectual tools, habitual tendencies like seeing. It is hard as it is the only home of the so used suffering samsara-me. looking in this way, not sure what is more mad than that.

mind - sound, image..., they aren't without eachother and so they aren't solid independent, permanent. still in habitual- apprehension we trap in their solidness.

'We hear sound because sound isn't'. ( not on itself) Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche.

[norman]

someone said time is an illusion and i said it wasn't...It got me to thinking...
do you think life is an illusion or illusionary..or more exact is existence an illusion...

I make the distinction because though it may appear illusionary it not necessarily is an illusion.

How real is this world to you?
do you think it really is as someone once said in the Buddhist community "like a dream within a dream"

It's not existence or life, as such, that is illusory (i.e., the things in themselves), it is the concepts of such things to begin with, that is under scrutiny in the sutras.

Analyzing life or existence as an objectively existing "thing" will end up with nothing, because they are void of the very concepts we ascribe to them. That doesn't make it illusory, it just makes them void objectively. The notion, however of an objectively existing thing called "life" or existence", that is the illusion. The act of perceiving of "things" as existing objectively is illusory as an objectively existing thing. In itself it's neither illusory nor not illusory, it's nothing at all.

"Form itself does not possess the own-being of form, etc (...)
and own-being does not possess the mark of [being] own-being."

- Prajnaparamita in 8000 lines

[gregkavarnos]

niguma.jpg (72.6 KiB) Viewed 428 times

We are duped by maya. The whole display of our senses has tricked us into believing it and thus seduces us into the world of suffering. And the illusionist is that old trickster, one's own mind. But when this illusory nature is recognized to be just that, one is released from the bondage of the magic show, at which time it becomes a wonderful spectacle, even a display of the unimpeded creativity and freedom of mind. Then maya itself is both the medium for this realization and the expression of it.
This conscious and intentional method of relating to all phenomena as illusion is thus cast in a totally positive light on the spiritual path, a complete turn-around from the original negative valuation of it as deceit. Now illusion is seen as illumination and opportunity. The nature of our relationship with it is the salient point, rather than its own nature, which certainly does not exist anyway, in any way.

Aryadeva says:
Since everything is an illusory display,
it is possible to attain enlightenment.

The transformation of the maya concept from something to escape to something to engage may be loosely correlated with the shift of emphasis on understanding emptiness that emerged in the mahayana teachings. A further development may be seen in the vajrayana teachings with the esoteric instruction known as Illusory Body (sgyu lus). This occurs as one of the Six Dharmas of Niguma and in other configurations of completion stage practices in many lineages. (p.40)

Niguma, Lady of Illusion by Sarah Harding, a Tsadra Foundation Series book, published by Snow Lion Publications

[Rael]

Thanks Greg...that was exactly what i needed....
It really clarifies the fog i'm dealing with....somehow you picked the one Arrow needed out of the Dharma Quiver ...

I love this place.....

i shall reread it a few times over the next while...truly a beautiful piece.....