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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
TMingyur wrote:

Or to put it differently:

Dear teacher, nobody before you has provided me with so much benefit. All teachers I have encountered before actually did not deliver anything meaningful. You are the opposite of all these learned and verbose teachers. I know from the depth of my heart that there cannot be anything in addition you can provide because your teaching actually already covered everything. Therefore I will not expect anything further, I will let go of all expectations and hopes as to the future, I will let go of you, teacher, i.e. having encountered you and received your teaching I will leave you again since you cannot teach me anything further. Any expectation to receive anything further actually would destroy all the benefit I have already received and would contradict the fact that what you have taught has already covered everything. If I would ever become a follower of you I would denigrate the precious teaching you delivered.

Kind regards


This would be fine if the teachings and relationship with the teacher was something static. But it is not.
Tantra means continuity, the transmission of the teachings in the Vajrayana setting is not complete when a teacher stops giving the oral instructions (which doesnt really happen anyways). The idea of working with a teacher and his/her transmission is based upon movement, energy, and continuity and the fluid connection of samaya. Not on the idea of going to a teaching and then going home. The connection is much deeper, ongoing, and directly related to the implementation of the instructions.
To take sutra teachings and move on is one thing but that is simply not how it works in the Vajrayana/Mahamudra/Dzogchen setting.


Precisely, this is what led me to say

Quote:
To say you rely on experience, following the Kalama sutta in regards to vajrayana, but at the same time admit you have not sought out even the most basic exposure to or experiences of vajrayana, is highly contradictory.


Tmingyur may say once again:
Quote:
Therefore I wrote "which of course does not comply with vajrayana tenets"
, claiming he understands vajrayana, however what is the purpose of commenting on a vajrayana topic while knowingly contradicting it's tenets, within a vajrayana subforum? This is the type of thing that appears to be troll-like behavior on his part. It comes across rather like a type of intentional baiting, regardless of the claims of pure motivation.

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:01 pm 
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:good: :namaste:

Imagine for a minute that a newbie on Dhammawheel asks about a suitable teacher in a Theravadan thread, and the advice given by a member involves rejection of the Theravada and and promotion of the Vajrayana view instead.

When asked for advice on which type of bicycle to buy it is not helpful to state that bicycles are bad and then recommend a banana or a fish. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
:good: :namaste:

Imagine for a minute that a newbie on Dhammawheel asks about a suitable teacher in a Theravadan thread, and the advice given by a member involves rejection of the Theravada and and promotion of the Vajrayana view instead.

When asked for advice on which type of bicycle to buy it is not helpful to state that bicycles are bad and then recommend a banana or a fish. :shrug:


So its best to ride a bicycle while eating a banana shaped like a fish :)

:popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:54 pm 
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I want a banana.


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:56 pm 
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gnegirl wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
:good: :namaste:

Imagine for a minute that a newbie on Dhammawheel asks about a suitable teacher in a Theravadan thread, and the advice given by a member involves rejection of the Theravada and and promotion of the Vajrayana view instead.

When asked for advice on which type of bicycle to buy it is not helpful to state that bicycles are bad and then recommend a banana or a fish. :shrug:


So its best to ride a bicycle while eating a banana shaped like a fish :)

:popcorn:


No no no! Eat the bicycle whilst riding the Vajrananafish. ! :oops: :offtopic: :namaste:

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Quote:
No no no! Eat the bicycle whilst riding the Vajrananafish. ! :oops: :offtopic: :namaste:


Now wait a duggurn minute there! I was promised a hovercraft!! :alien:

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"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:11 pm 
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gnegirl wrote:
Quote:
No no no! Eat the bicycle whilst riding the Vajrananafish. ! :oops: :offtopic: :namaste:


Now wait a duggurn minute there! I was promised a hovercraft!! :alien:



Weeeeell. I know a guy called Lobsang Rampa who can do you a nifty girl-sized kite to fly in - any use? :sage:

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:16 pm 
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:focus: Finding a teacher...


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:33 pm 
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rainbowtara wrote:
:focus: Finding a teacher...



:good: :namaste:

Sometimes people assert that when the time is right, you will meet your perfect teacher.

I also read of those who failed to recognise them.

I was very dubious, and thought it highly likely that relying on this assertion, i would probably need a few lifetimes to even get close.

Yet, it happened a few years ago; amazingly, wonderfully, and almost on my doorstep.

I know of one other person who is a member here who has found their perfect Guru.

Has anyone else?

is there any advice derived from this experience which we can offer the OP?

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:12 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:

I know of one other person who is a member here who has found their perfect Guru.

Has anyone else?

is there any advice derived from this experience which we can offer the OP?

Yes, I am fortunate enough to have 2.
When you find your root lama(s) everything comes into a much more clear focus. Practice becomes more direct, meaningful, and poignant.
Dont rush, dont feel bad if you havent found your teacher. Just stay open and keep learning, studying, and practicing.


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Yeshe wrote:

I know of one other person who is a member here who has found their perfect Guru.

Has anyone else?

is there any advice derived from this experience which we can offer the OP?

Yes, I am fortunate enough to have 2.
When you find your root lama(s) everything comes into a much more clear focus. Practice becomes more direct, meaningful, and poignant.
Dont rush, dont feel bad if you havent found your teacher. Just stay open and keep learning, studying, and practicing.


Wonderful. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:31 pm 
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heart wrote:
Inge wrote:
heart wrote:
The image of the snake in the empty bamboo tube is not a restricted to one life. You might not break samaya in this life but if you don't practice there is no realization.

/magnus


If this is correct then there is hell realms, Buddhahood and other lives. Those other lives, are they restricted to the human realm? Or is it possible to enter the other realms also?

What are the content of the bamboo tube?


The content of the bamboo is the luminous vajrayana, the traveler is the confused mind. Of course other lives are not restricted in any way, it is your confusion that creates the circumstances for your rebirth.

/magnus

Then how is this different from ordinary samsaric experience?


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Its different from "ordinary" samsara in that one is actually on a path to liberation that can directly lead one out of samsara.
If you maintain samaya and practice diligently according to a legitimate teachers instructions the other realms of rebirth will not be an issue.
Thus the bamboo tube of Vajrayana leads to liberation.
Its a metaphor, not a literal argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Its different from "ordinary" samsara in that one is actually on a path to liberation that can directly lead one out of samsara.
If you maintain samaya and practice diligently according to a legitimate teachers instructions the other realms of rebirth will not be an issue.
Thus the bamboo tube of Vajrayana leads to liberation.
Its a metaphor, not a literal argument.


For the snake inside the bamboo-tube there are only two exits. So going forward inside the tube leads to exit into buddhahood, and going backwards leads to exit into hellish existence. Once exited into this hellish realm, is it not possible to enter the tube again?

If the tube is entered from the human realm then i think it would be logical that also to exit by going backwards would lead back to the human realm.

If the bamboo tube contains lives in all the realms I think it is not a very good image.

Maybe to be hanging in a rope is more illustrative? Below are the particular hell, above is buddhahood. The rope symbolizing samaya?


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:23 pm 
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Inge wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Its different from "ordinary" samsara in that one is actually on a path to liberation that can directly lead one out of samsara.
If you maintain samaya and practice diligently according to a legitimate teachers instructions the other realms of rebirth will not be an issue.
Thus the bamboo tube of Vajrayana leads to liberation.
Its a metaphor, not a literal argument.


For the snake inside the bamboo-tube there are only two exits. So going forward inside the tube leads to exit into buddhahood, and going backwards leads to exit into hellish existence. Once exited into this hellish realm, is it not possible to enter the tube again?

If the tube is entered from the human realm then i think it would be logical that also to exit by going backwards would lead back to the human realm.

If the bamboo tube contains lives in all the realms I think it is not a very good image.

Maybe to be hanging in a rope is more illustrative? Below are the particular hell, above is buddhahood. The rope symbolizing samaya?

I see your point.
I guess its a matter of interpretation, but I dont really think it matters to be honest. I read it as a metaphor meaning simply that if one fully commits to Vajrayana practice then they will quickly (by comparison) see positive results but if one commits to Vajrayana and then breaks that commitment then the result will be bad.
Different people say that the time spent in the hell realms is excruciatingly long for those who break samaya and dont repair it. This might be why the metaphor reads so drastically.


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:30 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
Inge wrote:
Nangwa wrote:
Its different from "ordinary" samsara in that one is actually on a path to liberation that can directly lead one out of samsara.
If you maintain samaya and practice diligently according to a legitimate teachers instructions the other realms of rebirth will not be an issue.
Thus the bamboo tube of Vajrayana leads to liberation.
Its a metaphor, not a literal argument.


For the snake inside the bamboo-tube there are only two exits. So going forward inside the tube leads to exit into buddhahood, and going backwards leads to exit into hellish existence. Once exited into this hellish realm, is it not possible to enter the tube again?

If the tube is entered from the human realm then i think it would be logical that also to exit by going backwards would lead back to the human realm.

If the bamboo tube contains lives in all the realms I think it is not a very good image.

Maybe to be hanging in a rope is more illustrative? Below are the particular hell, above is buddhahood. The rope symbolizing samaya?

I see your point.
I guess its a matter of interpretation, but I dont really think it matters to be honest. I read it as a metaphor meaning simply that if one fully commits to Vajrayana practice then they will quickly (by comparison) see positive results but if one commits to Vajrayana and then breaks that commitment then the result will be bad.
Different people say that the time spent in the hell realms is excruciatingly long for those who break samaya and dont repair it. This might be why the metaphor reads so drastically.


I think it matters. One are advised to abandon hope and fear, and then served such images that actually plays on hope of swift enlightenment and fear of hellish experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:46 pm 
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One abandons hope and fear when they are on the path.
The metaphor of the snake in the tube is a precaution.


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Inge wrote:

I think it matters. One are advised to abandon hope and fear, and then served such images that actually plays on hope of swift enlightenment and fear of hellish experience.


Well, it's in the vows themselves. What's more, once one has truly transcended all hope and fear to the point where all is 'one taste', primordial purity itself, then all the relative vows of the lower yanas are consumed within this vast realization. At this point to benefit the appearance of suffering beings one may exhibit perfect outward conduct as a skillful means, but you only need to look at the stories of Drukpa Kunleg, Dudjom Lingpa, Guru Rinpoche or the Indian Mahasiddhas for instance to see that outward conduct may defy convention at this level of realization.

It is well known that Varayana is the path of "skillful means" so while we are still caught in worldy obsessions of hope and fear this vehicle uses these emotions as fuel for practice. This does not mean that the consequences are not relatively 'real', as much as any experience in our life appears real. These vows function according to dependent origination and the karmic law of cause and effect. Until we wake from the dream, we experience it as real and suffer or find happiness accordingly. Similarly with this 'waking' dream of cyclic existence. As long as we are caught in dualistic fixation we are subject to causes and conditions and the results of taking vows are part of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:21 am 
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Yeshe wrote:

<snip>
is there any advice derived from this experience which we can offer the OP?


Make an aspiration! From the heart and sincere for the hope of all parents. I'm a rather little person, but this i know to be true, this works!

I met a few teachers. One teacher was like the sun, outshining everything around, if one got too close, one could burn. The second was like the full moon, shining illumination everywhere, but easy to miss by the light of the noon sun.

I ended up following the one who was like the moon, as it was to him i always went for clarification of everything the first would say, or do.

I know he is one with Guru Rinpoche, and i'm one of his worst students, if i can indeed call myself that.

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"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?


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 Post subject: Re: Finding a teacher...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:55 am 
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:good:
gnegirl wrote:
Yeshe wrote:

<snip>
is there any advice derived from this experience which we can offer the OP?


Make an aspiration! From the heart and sincere for the hope of all parents. I'm a rather little person, but this i know to be true, this works!

I met a few teachers. One teacher was like the sun, outshining everything around, if one got too close, one could burn. The second was like the full moon, shining illumination everywhere, but easy to miss by the light of the noon sun.

I ended up following the one who was like the moon, as it was to him i always went for clarification of everything the first would say, or do.

I know he is one with Guru Rinpoche, and i'm one of his worst students, if i can indeed call myself that.

:good:


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