Sects and Sectarianism

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby muni » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:04 am

Astus wrote:OK, here's another one, perhaps this will be clearer:

"In cultivating the Dharma, you may cultivate Dhyana, the teachings, the precepts, the secret school or the Pure Land, but it is all in order to bring your thoughts to a halt so that you do not produce a single thought."

(Buddhism in the Space Age by Hsuan Hua)


This mean maybe when there is cultivating; there is fabricating or artificial. When there is idea of one producing thought is there grasping. The thoughts' emptiness, not belonging to an entity ... or the thoughts which represent me-idea. When thoughts are empty (display), they can turn in tools, not affecting or conditioning anyone.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Astus » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:50 am

The point is that regardless of what method one uses their aim is the same in eliminating conceptual fabrications as that is the cause of ignorance. That is true for Theravada too.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby muni » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:18 pm

Theravada is it, Mahayana is mine, Vajra... smells as eternalism by concept ego. So sectarian. Not?

What mind seems to connect ( dependency) is not to be grasped, rather use as tool. If not Dhamma/Dharma is no medicine but poison.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Anders » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:34 pm

Huseng wrote:However, the Theravāda conception of Buddhahood is different from that of the Mahāyāna. They do not accept the existence of nirmānakāya, saṃbhogakāya and the dharmakāya, otherwise known as the trikāya. The Mahāsāṃghika did not specify a dharmakāya as far as we know, but they had a conception not unlike it. However, the Theravāda rejects such theories.


I don't think these are terribly relevant to this point.

The real crux is the WAY to Buddhahood. For Theravada, this is a long path of delusion cultivating the paramitas and basically, only the few who get a prediction are going to make it anyway. Bodhisattvas are nevertheless ordinary beings. With no wider cosmology of Buddhas and bodhisattvas either, this comes down to a very limited number.

In the Mahayana, the Bodhisattva path is through one through the aryan stages and one participates in the actual liberation of beings while on that path, not just accumulating the two accumulations for the culmination of one lifetime of Buddhahood wherein one does this. For the Theravada, once you hit Aryan, you are out of the system in 7 lives, whether you want to or not.

I am not terribly sure making arguments from the thai forest tradition is a great counter in this debate. They deviate significantly from Theravada orthodoxy on many points and if anything are a curious modern parallel to the possible origins of Mahayana doctrine amongst realised practitioners. I consider them a kind of crypto-mahayana school in many ways, and I mean that in a purely positive sense, though I doubt many Theravada practitioners will accept such a 'compliment'.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Rael » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:01 pm

If your going to be a Mahayana Buddhist and you accept that all is Dharma , and more importantly that when the Dharma Wheel is turned all sorts of teachings and gurus and teachers and religions , even ones that appear to be opposing one another, appear all over space and time......then you can't be sectarian....

look at the venom spewed at me cause i said Completion Stage practices is not the soul ownership of Buddhists...

seriously .....lol......

it's all there for everyone....no one owns it...Buddha's have come to earth momentarily and looked like homeless hags.....for a reason.....

you have to get over yourselves in order to drop the sectarian subtleties that poison your being.....

you want to see sectarianism....

watch as people argue over different sects of Buddhism and forget about the fact other teachings have appeared due to the Buddha's Will.......and that those teachings are no less valid than Tantra or sutta or what ever.....
Love Love Love
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby LastLegend » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:12 pm

Here is a PATRIARCH who practiced both Theravada and Mahayana in Vietnam. One thing except all of his monks were vegetarian strictly. They walked for food, yes. Vietnamese people know to give monks vegetarian food.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPFS46qF5Yo


As for Arhat, Boddhisavatta, and Buddha. These are just potentials that all sentient beings can be. What destination is yours?

If I may ask this question that has asked by many: Where is your mind (citta)? Mind here does not mean the 6th consciousness but means Buddha Nature. Even if you disagree, please answer my question. Buddha Nature from my understanding contain all and nothing is outside of it. You can say 'it' is infinite.

Does Dependent Origination not speak of 'ignorance' Buddha Nature that has created everything that is in existence today? Imagine what a Buddha can do.

Buddha not = Arhat for Sakyamuni Buddha had disciples who were enlightened or Arhats but they were not Buddhas.

By the way, Mahayana teachings do not stray away from Fourth Noble Truths and Dependent Origination or 12 Conditional Factors. You will have problems if you do not understand 12 Conditional Factors and if your knowledge is solely based on history and subjective philosophies (from lack of understanding of basic teachings).

Fourth Noble Truths in Pure Land for example
1)There is Suffering
2)Cause of Suffering
3)Pure Land (a place in the mind) is the answer instead of Nirvana (a place and some say a state of mind but where is mind? ahhh)
4)Practice Pure Land with diligence

The difference here is still compassion which is an act to save other sentient beings also. This is the reason why Theravada people have a problem with Bodhisattva is that in Theravada's view: when a Arhat is realized, this enlightened being would dip out to Nirvana. Other enlightened beings who come back or vow to help other sentient beings by many means necessarily. These enlightened beings are Bodhisattvas and Buddhas who carry different potentials than those of an Arhat. But remember Buddha is the ultimate potential that every sentient being can be thus we all are equal in this sense, so choose your path. For example, Amitabha Buddha who vowed to help other sentient beings to be reborn in his Pure Land (where is Pure Land?ahhh). This is the reason why Theravada people seem to disagree with Amitabha and other Buddhas...an Arhat can make vows to become a Bodhisattva if this being wishes to.

I apologize if I sounded superior to Theravada people for this is not my intention but I am still a human being. By the way some Mahayana people it is easy to realize Arhat...NOT...in fact rarely any these days lol and even Zen Meditation, tantra, or whatever rarely seen one. Call me crazy, typical, extreme, lunatic or fundamentalist for I care I am going on a boat of Amitabha. Why because I practice and I experience changes in my life...Ahem as for those who make Bodhisattva's vows, and you can't observe samadhi or samatha in this life time, you might have a big problem in the next life as you may not remember anything at all. So the good path right now is Amitabha as far as I can see it.

You can talk all your life but if you don't practice, then it is empty talk and can never experience the flavor or taste of Buddhism.

Lastly, Compassion...well compassion is to practice[any practices including meditation (not the sitting one but the detachment from everything/forms one sees in everyday's life), giving,etc] completely letting go of self in order to serve other sentient beings. Every thought and act is about other sentient beings. This practice of compassion is a practice in every aspect in everyday's life in interaction with sentient beings (e.g., people) and environment. Meditation as mentioned earlier is not about sitting in one place but about practicing detaching on the inside in every interaction with sentient beings and environment. In other words, practice not reacting with senses and consciousnesses to forms and calm inside. So this is is basically practicing Bodhishavattahood or path.

Don't beat me up for this lol.
Last edited by LastLegend on Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:58 pm

Rael wrote:
you want to see sectarianism....

.....


Ones own karmic vision, if we cannot see it as a gift, then we contuine in it.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:02 pm

the dharma taliban would have us eat crow over sectarian verbage, yet in all truth it is a shared karmic vision, that if we really practice what we preach, it would be a gift of wisdom. Yet unfortunatley the lesson is never learned, the gift is rejected, and so on it grows.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:04 pm

oh and BTW,

the buddha never taught about schools of buddhism, i think he was free of such conceit.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:53 pm

Heruka wrote:the dharma taliban would have us eat crow over sectarian verbage, yet in all truth it is a shared karmic vision, that if we really practice what we preach, it would be a gift of wisdom. Yet unfortunatley the lesson is never learned, the gift is rejected, and so on it grows.


'Us'?

Surely those who need to purify are those who espouse sectarianism.

There is no shared karmic vision, only our individual karma ripening.

I hope your reference to Dharma Taliban was not the same as Thurman's, who displayed breathtaking ignorance in his utterance.

The lesson is learned in every moment, and often forgotten in the next. ;)
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Caz » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Rejoicing in Dharma practise is good ! Its nice to see people engaging in controlling the mind, Engaging in petty sectarian disputes is something that contradicts even these fundementals but its good fortune that there are many wise and well practised Buddhist out there who demonstrate correct action In such its good to see Buddhism is still alive in this way :buddha1:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:03 pm

Yeshe wrote:There is no shared karmic vision, only our individual karma ripening.


human realm is a "shared human karmic vision" so no, your wrong.


I hope your reference to Dharma Taliban was not the same as Thurman's, who displayed breathtaking ignorance in his utterance.



No mine, "dharma taliban" there i said it again, no thought crime there!




The lesson is learned in every moment, and often forgotten in the next. ;)



well they say if you carry a wound on your backside, you cannot sit in comfort.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:05 pm

not a fan of Thurman either.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:08 pm

BTW yeshe, do you know what taliban means?
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:16 pm

Caz wrote:Rejoicing in Dharma practise is good ! Its nice to see people engaging in controlling the mind, Engaging in petty sectarian disputes is something that contradicts even these fundementals but its good fortune that there are many wise and well practised Buddhist out there who demonstrate correct action In such its good to see Buddhism is still alive in this way :buddha1:


this is a nice sentimet zac, but lofty flowery talk only appeals to those capitvated by poetry and praise!
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Caz » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:17 pm

Heruka wrote:BTW yeshe, do you know what taliban means?


A Taliban in the traditional arabic meaning is " One who is seeking " Gee the internet sure is handy :cheers:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Heruka » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Caz wrote:
Heruka wrote:BTW yeshe, do you know what taliban means?


A Taliban in the traditional arabic meaning is " One who is seeking " Gee the internet sure is handy :cheers:



no this is wrong, a talib is a "student".
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Caz » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:18 pm

Heruka wrote:
Caz wrote:Rejoicing in Dharma practise is good ! Its nice to see people engaging in controlling the mind, Engaging in petty sectarian disputes is something that contradicts even these fundementals but its good fortune that there are many wise and well practised Buddhist out there who demonstrate correct action In such its good to see Buddhism is still alive in this way :buddha1:


this is a nice sentimet zac, but lofty flowery talk only appeals to those capitvated by poetry and praise!


Well its a Damn good Job that people are practising the principle of humility then. :rolling:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
Caz
 
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Caz » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:19 pm

Heruka wrote:
Caz wrote:
Heruka wrote:BTW yeshe, do you know what taliban means?


A Taliban in the traditional arabic meaning is " One who is seeking " Gee the internet sure is handy :cheers:



no this is wrong, a talib is a "student".


This can also translate as this. :)
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

Liberation in the Palm of your hand~Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche.
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Re: Sects and Sectarianism

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:19 pm

Heruka wrote:
human realm is a "shared human karmic vision" so no, your wrong.


Human realm has many beings. No evidence that, lacking inherent existence, phenomena are perceived in the same way by even two of them.

Ah, Bob Thurman, apparently lacking in attainment unless one counts bigotry, whose main contribution to society was Uma - so I forgive him. ;)

Taliban? I was referring to its derogatory use by Thurman and hoping you did not mean it the same way. You didn't so all is well. ;)
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