Finding and leaving the teacher ...
Finding and leaving the teacher ...
In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.
As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.
Never settle down.
Thoughts?
Kind regards
As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.
Never settle down.
Thoughts?
Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finding a teacher ...
You've already posted this. It's illogical as it assumes the teacher has no more to give and/or the student will need no more help.TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.
As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.
Never settle down.
Thoughts?
Kind regards
Another anti-Vajrayana punt, and a weak effort at that - using the same title as the thread where you posted this before.
Left
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
I left the vajrayana forum and started this in the general mahayana forum because it may be worthwhile to discuss.Yeshe wrote: Another anti-Vajrayana punt, and a weak effort at that - using the same title as the thread where you posted this before.
I modified the title. It is actually another thread.
Actually I am again disppointed about vajrayanists. I take this to be a sign. I am not "anti-vajrayana".
Not necessarily illogical since once one received benefit one may get attached to the teacher as person and progress can be blocked through that.Yeshe wrote: It's illogical as it assumes the teacher has no more to give and/or the student will need no more help.
Kind regards
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
What makes you think that this assertion is more valid within the Mahayana?
I see no difference.
Irrespective of the mind of the disciple. you cannot know the mind of the guru so cannot assume they have no more to offer.
That's why it is illogical. The premise is wrong.
I see no difference.
Irrespective of the mind of the disciple. you cannot know the mind of the guru so cannot assume they have no more to offer.
That's why it is illogical. The premise is wrong.
Left
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
The vajrayana tenets belong to the vajrayana.Yeshe wrote:What makes you think that this assertion is more valid within the Mahayana?
Of course.Yeshe wrote: I see no difference.
What is "more"? There always may be expected "more", something "better", something "higher" ... always ... but what if not ... and does it matter after all?Yeshe wrote: Irrespective of the mind of the disciple. you cannot know the mind of the guru so cannot assume they have no more to offer.
You are entitled to this opinion.Yeshe wrote: That's why it is illogical. The premise is wrong.
But I know your opinion already ... so either there is somebody else in this forum to have an opinion other than vajrayana view or I can leave it at that. Just was a try.
I guess vajrayanists dominate Mahayana forums. Nevermind.
Kind regards
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
What evidence do you have that your assertions are valid within the Mahayana?TMingyur wrote:[
The vajrayana tenets belong to the vajrayana.
Kind regards
Whate evidence do you have that the Vajrayana view on this is different from the Mahayana view?
In the end I see a baseless assertion as the OP.
Can you provide any evidence that a disciple may know when their teacher has no more to offer?
Of course not, so your premise is still baseless - in the Theravada also.
Left
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
If you read what I have written you will recognize that I did not fabricate such a materialistic context.Yeshe wrote:Can you provide any evidence that a disciple may know when their teacher has no more to offer?
I do not care about traditions in the context of the 8fold path. What you call my premise actually is your premise and not mine.Yeshe wrote: Of course not, so your premise is still baseless - in the Theravada also.
But of course all premises are without support, i.e they are "baseless".
kind regards
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
It's a ridiculous and sadly misguided notion. I hope you don't really believe it and unless you are just being deliberately provocative you have obviously never received or never properly understood Mahayana teachings.TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left. As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
Quote you:TMingyur wrote:If you read what I have written you will recognize that I did not fabricate such a materialistic context.Yeshe wrote:Can you provide any evidence that a disciple may know when their teacher has no more to offer?
''Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left. As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him. ''
As soon as the disciple has received benefit...............so it is the disciple's decision. Unless they are omniscient, your premise is false, based on the 'feeling' of the disciple. Again - give it up, it's just nonsensical. You know it.
Left
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
Don't feed the troll! Trolls thrive on the negative emotions they engender, this is detrimental to you and the troll. The question has been answered in another thread/forum so it does not need to be answered again.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
Reluctantly and sadly I have also come to the conclusion TMingyur is a troll. It's a shame because he seems to be a highly intelligent person.gregkavarnos wrote:Don't feed the troll!
Last edited by Tilopa on Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- conebeckham
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
In life, I usually find that if something is beneficial, I stick with it. If it stops being beneficial, or becomes detrimental, well, then, I leave it.
But hey, that's just me! TMingyur, you're free to do as you wish!
But hey, that's just me! TMingyur, you're free to do as you wish!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
Should be? Why?TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.
Benefit is received from loving-kindness, for example. Why should one then leave loving-kindness, and where would that take them?
Again, why?As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.
Never settle down.
Perhaps the benefit you initially receive is mundane and quickly perishes. Then what, do you go back to the teacher and apologize for having left prematurely, before having attained the essence of his teaching?
Never settle down... Okay, I can appreciate that. But even when one travels about to practice under other teachers, one never "leaves" his original teacher.
"Homage to the Original Teacher Śākyamuni Buddha" after all...
nopalabhyate...
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
To reply to those who impulsively argue form the perspective of tenets appears futile to me. So I leave them with their view.
Kind regards
Well that sounds reasonable. So it is a matter of whether and how to detect beneficial or detrimental.conebeckham wrote:In life, I usually find that if something is beneficial, I stick with it. If it stops being beneficial, or becomes detrimental, well, then, I leave it.
You mean the loving-kindness you receive from a teacher?Dexing wrote:Should be? Why?TMingyur wrote:In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left.
Benefit is received from loving-kindness, for example. Why should one then leave loving-kindness, and where would that take them?
So there is also the expectation that there will be given something "better" that is the basis of not leaving?Dexing wrote:Again, why?As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him.
Never settle down.
Perhaps the benefit you initially receive is mundane and quickly perishes. Then what, do you go back to the teacher and apologize for having left prematurely, before having attained the essence of his teaching?
Yes. It is not possible to leave him once it is decided to practice the path.Dexing wrote: "Homage to the Original Teacher Śākyamuni Buddha" after all...
Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Adamantine
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
I am not sure if Tmingyur means something along the lines of "If you see the Buddha in the road, kill him."
It doesn't quite seem that way. But if he was riffing on that idea, then it is about not getting attached to an external representation of "Buddha", outside of one's own mind, right? But then Tmingyur also has problems with the notion of "Buddha Nature", so that can't be what he's getting at.
The thing about having a realized being (Bodhisattva, Buddha, etc.) show us the kindness of
overseeing our purification, is that whenever we begin to cling to one thing or another, even at a certain point the outer form of the teacher themselves, a true teacher will always immediately assist you in cutting that tendency. But as for this latter type of clinging, this is only an obstruction once one has actually achieved a very advanced level of realization, -when one's mind is truly no different from the Guru, or Buddha himself. At that point looking myopically to the external teacher is just another habitual tendency. But for most of us, we are at the stage where we need to cultivate precisely great devotion, respect, gratitude and pure-vision towards our teachers, especially if they are our Vajra Gurus. . . and to put great trust in them, rather then our own deeply ingrained habitual emotional and intellectual traps. This is the only way to begin the practice of Guru yoga, which is the essence of the path, where our minds can actually merge with the wisdom minds of our teachers. This is, of course, a Vajrayana belief. But Vajrayana is the natural extension of Mahayana, it is still Mahayana in essence. So I don't believe the Mahayana systems differ in many respects on this point. Looking at Zen Roshi's and their relationship to disciples, for example, there seems to be a lot in common. What Mahayana tradition is there where teachers are viewed as disposable?
It doesn't quite seem that way. But if he was riffing on that idea, then it is about not getting attached to an external representation of "Buddha", outside of one's own mind, right? But then Tmingyur also has problems with the notion of "Buddha Nature", so that can't be what he's getting at.
The thing about having a realized being (Bodhisattva, Buddha, etc.) show us the kindness of
overseeing our purification, is that whenever we begin to cling to one thing or another, even at a certain point the outer form of the teacher themselves, a true teacher will always immediately assist you in cutting that tendency. But as for this latter type of clinging, this is only an obstruction once one has actually achieved a very advanced level of realization, -when one's mind is truly no different from the Guru, or Buddha himself. At that point looking myopically to the external teacher is just another habitual tendency. But for most of us, we are at the stage where we need to cultivate precisely great devotion, respect, gratitude and pure-vision towards our teachers, especially if they are our Vajra Gurus. . . and to put great trust in them, rather then our own deeply ingrained habitual emotional and intellectual traps. This is the only way to begin the practice of Guru yoga, which is the essence of the path, where our minds can actually merge with the wisdom minds of our teachers. This is, of course, a Vajrayana belief. But Vajrayana is the natural extension of Mahayana, it is still Mahayana in essence. So I don't believe the Mahayana systems differ in many respects on this point. Looking at Zen Roshi's and their relationship to disciples, for example, there seems to be a lot in common. What Mahayana tradition is there where teachers are viewed as disposable?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
That's interesting. So you think that one has to be taken, either an external or an internal one.Adamantine wrote:But if he was riffing on that idea, then it is about not getting attached to an external representation of "Buddha", outside of one's own mind, right? But then Tmingyur also has problems with the notion of "Buddha Nature", so that can't be what he's getting at.
Teachers are certainly not disposable generally and in the first place. That of course is nothing specific for Mahayana but for Theravada and all non-buddhist traditions and worldly skills as well.Adamantine wrote:What Mahayana tradition is there where teachers are viewed as disposable?
Kind regards
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
No, I mean the loving-kindness you give to others. By practicing loving-kindness you receive a multitude of benefits. The source of such benefit would be loving-kindness. Do you propose that loving-kindness should be abandoned?TMingyur wrote: You mean the loving-kindness you receive from a teacher?
Not necessarily. One experiences the benefit of following a teacher's instructions, and then develops confidence that this teacher is one to follow, and so continues to study under this teacher. As you said; "It is not possible to leave him once it is decided to practice the path."So there is also the expectation that there will be given something "better" that is the basis of not leaving?
If one simply experiences a little peace and gladness as a result of Dharma study, and then leaves, one will not reach liberation or supreme Bodhi. Yet, if this teacher says that their instructions will lead to peace and gladness as well as liberation and supreme Bodhi, and the mundane benefits have been received, why should one leave this teacher rather than to continue study and practice under them?
nopalabhyate...
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
Of course not. I am missing the point were this relates to "teacher" however. "Leaving the teacher" must not mean "having aversion toward".Dexing wrote:No, I mean the loving-kindness you give to others. By practicing loving-kindness you receive a multitude of benefits. The source of such benefit would be loving-kindness. Do you propose that loving-kindness should be abandoned?TMingyur wrote: You mean the loving-kindness you receive from a teacher?
"leaving" may imply different things:Dexing wrote:Not necessarily. One experiences the benefit of following a teacher's instructions, and then develops confidence that this teacher is one to follow, and so continues to study under this teacher. As you said; "It is not possible to leave him once it is decided to practice the path."So there is also the expectation that there will be given something "better" that is the basis of not leaving?
If one simply experiences a little peace and gladness as a result of Dharma study, and then leaves, one will not reach liberation or supreme Bodhi. Yet, if this teacher says that their instructions will lead to peace and gladness as well as liberation and supreme Bodhi, and the mundane benefits have been received, why should one leave this teacher rather than to continue study and practice under them?
1. being disappointed and therefore leaving and looking for something "better"
2. having generated aversion due to being disappointed
3. being grateful and keeping "in one's heart" what has been received but not expect anything further, i.e. being content with what was taught and dwell on that from then on, i.e. integrating that what has been received and all future undertakings.
4. other possibilities (?)
as to 3: this may imply both, depending on the appearance of "teacher" but still not being dependent on "teacher as such"
Kind regards
- Adamantine
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Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
I really am not sure how you derived that from my comments you quoted.TMingyur wrote:That's interesting. So you think that one has to be taken, either an external or an internal one.Adamantine wrote:But if he was riffing on that idea, then it is about not getting attached to an external representation of "Buddha", outside of one's own mind, right? But then Tmingyur also has problems with the notion of "Buddha Nature", so that can't be what he's getting at.
Well however you want to put it then: -what Mahayana tradition is there that instructs one to leave a teacher as soon as one finds some benefit?Teachers are certainly not disposable generally and in the first place. That of course is nothing specific for Mahayana but for Theravada and all non-buddhist traditions and worldly skills as well.Adamantine wrote:What Mahayana tradition is there where teachers are viewed as disposable?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: Finding and leaving the teacher ...
In the opening post you said;TMingyur wrote:Of course not. I am missing the point were this relates to "teacher" however.Dexing wrote:No, I mean the loving-kindness you give to others. By practicing loving-kindness you receive a multitude of benefits. The source of such benefit would be loving-kindness. Do you propose that loving-kindness should be abandoned?TMingyur wrote: You mean the loving-kindness you receive from a teacher?
- "In order to receive benefit, one has to find its source. Once benefit has been received the source of benefit should be left."
My comment on loving-kindness being a source of great benefit is in response to this. You say one should of course not abandon loving-kindness, even though it is a source of benefit.
If you liken it to a student-teacher relationship, as in;
- "As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him."
Then my comment still stands in this case. If you agree that loving-kindness should not be abandoned, then you should agree that the teacher should not be left, as you suggested.
You have logically contradicted yourself then, to where I am unclear where you even stand now. Do you suggest leaving your teacher or not?
nopalabhyate...