Do you really think existence is an illusion

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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:59 am

Rael,

When I spoke of a thick skull, I thought it was obvious I was speaking about all of us deluded sentient beings and our thick obscurations. Sorry if you read me as attacking you personally.

Rael wrote:completion stage vajrayana is physiological...the realizations and the compassion one generates previously is to manage the power that comes along with it.....

i would say the completion stage enhances these realizations and Bodhiccita produced prior to completion stage practice....

even without both the realizations you talk of and the Bodhiccita the completion stage practices can be accomplished...but the person with this change could be a dangerous one to themselves and their environment....without the proper training in the first place.....


I'm afraid you're misinformed about completion stage practice, or you just plain have an incorrect understanding of whatever you've heard or read. You're no doubt going to vehemently deny that; unfortunately I'm neither the person to properly teach you about it, nor is this the place to do so, so I'll just leave it at that. Think and say what you wish.

Now, you said the teaching on impermanence and the illusory quality of relative reality was a "flaky philosophy" that "doesn't help anyone," and amounts to mere "flowery superlatives," but when I gave my rebuttal to those mistaken views you said I was creating a straw man. So if I've been mischaracterizing your views, what exactly IS your problem with lamas speaking about impermanence and the illusory quality of relative reality?

Lastly, as for the accusations of animosity toward you, and all your emotional outbursts directed at lamas and the teachings in the Mahayana sutras which you have lots of assumptions about, etc ... Don't you think maybe you're being a bit of a drama queen lately?
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:36 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Lastly, as for the accusations of animosity toward you, and all your emotional outbursts directed at lamas and the teachings in the Mahayana sutras which you have lots of assumptions about, etc ... Don't you think maybe you're being a bit of a drama queen lately?
Owwwwww! That's gotta hurt! Both of you should just chill out for a second before continuing.
:meditate:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Mr. G » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:17 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Rael, I'm afraid you're misinformed about completion stage practice, or you just plain have an incorrect understanding of whatever you've heard or read.


^This.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:16 pm

I have no need to defend myself in this....these emotional exchange of misunderstanding....it's not a game for me...

but it does need to be pointed out....when someone decides to explain what i'm saying....
I can't allow people to just say what i mean....use what i say as a springboard for ridicule without addressing the actuall quotes....like i said the person would not be able to address where they saw me wrote those things....it's rude.....???


but for the sake of those actually wanting to learn something that one cannot speak about in this forum...

completion stage practices are all visual meditations except for a series of physical exercises that are aimed at the channels and the chakras...too much info?
One does use one's mind to sort of physically "force something that at first is visual meditation but eventually becomes physical"...or "plays with" ..with one's mind......is this too explicit for the mods and rules...

the reality is the "understanding of impermanence and sunyata and Bodhiccitta are given to the initiate for reasons...

are they going to effect the outcome ...yes....can the outcome be brought on without this understandings...yes.....

i say understandings as a lesser impact of realization.....for those understandings become experience .... as per the other arguments about whether sunyata is a thought or experience???


Now ;
Lastly, as for the accusations of animosity toward you, and all your emotional outbursts directed at lamas and the teachings in the Mahayana sutras which you have lots of assumptions about, etc ... Don't you think maybe you're being a bit of a drama queen lately?


"chuckles"
however you feel about my challenge....i'm right....sitting on thrones using superlatives like if one fully understands impermanence then they will be happy....is unreal ...more over...maybe it's too easy for me...but the concept of impermanence is not really that big of a realization that is going to make me happy....any science student will tell you about the laws of decay....or the laws of time as this Lama was doing......

the Tulku who taught us...and Lord Buddha's edict always question authority.....anyway...abbots ..very high abbots created all this bullshit about women to thwart a bunch of monks sitting around thinking about sex all the time.....

there's tons of boogy man stories .....
knowing about impermanence and embracing it is not going to put food on the table for some...or alleviate the pain....or wipe out your karma....which is causing you unhappiness....



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
like pink said:
I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad...
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:48 pm

you know completion stage vajarayana is not exclusive to Buddhists...

Yes it is shrouded in Sadhana and Buddhist mysticism....

but in the sense of the actual physiological changes that happen ...and the power that comes with it....

is not just Buddhist....

although i highly recommend it be done in somewhat of a Buddhist setting....lol.... :offtopic:

:offtopic: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :offtopic:

:offtopic: I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad :offtopic:

GOTTA LOVE FLOYDNESS TOSSED INTO THE THING....
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby muni » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:00 pm

Thoughts' owner is illusion. No owner.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:20 pm

Rael wrote:I have no need to defend myself in this....these emotional exchange of misunderstanding....it's not a game for me...

but it does need to be pointed out....when someone decides to explain what i'm saying....
I can't allow people to just say what i mean....use what i say as a springboard for ridicule without addressing the actuall quotes....like i said the person would not be able to address where they saw me wrote those things....it's rude.....???


but for the sake of those actually wanting to learn something that one cannot speak about in this forum...

completion stage practices are all visual meditations except for a series of physical exercises that are aimed at the channels and the chakras...too much info?
One does use one's mind to sort of physically "force something that at first is visual meditation but eventually becomes physical"...or "plays with" ..with one's mind......is this too explicit for the mods and rules...

the reality is the "understanding of impermanence and sunyata and Bodhiccitta are given to the initiate for reasons...

are they going to effect the outcome ...yes....can the outcome be brought on without this understandings...yes.....

i say understandings as a lesser impact of realization.....for those understandings become experience .... as per the other arguments about whether sunyata is a thought or experience???


Now ;
Lastly, as for the accusations of animosity toward you, and all your emotional outbursts directed at lamas and the teachings in the Mahayana sutras which you have lots of assumptions about, etc ... Don't you think maybe you're being a bit of a drama queen lately?


"chuckles"
however you feel about my challenge....i'm right....sitting on thrones using superlatives like if one fully understands impermanence then they will be happy....is unreal ...more over...maybe it's too easy for me...but the concept of impermanence is not really that big of a realization that is going to make me happy....any science student will tell you about the laws of decay....or the laws of time as this Lama was doing......

the Tulku who taught us...and Lord Buddha's edict always question authority.....anyway...abbots ..very high abbots created all this bullshit about women to thwart a bunch of monks sitting around thinking about sex all the time.....

there's tons of boogy man stories .....
knowing about impermanence and embracing it is not going to put food on the table for some...or alleviate the pain....or wipe out your karma....which is causing you unhappiness....



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
like pink said:
I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad...



''And then the one day you find ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun''
(Pink Floyd)


There is no 'starting gun', no moment of past, present or future - no existence - only impermanence.

Watch the sun setting on the horizon. When you see it touch the horizn, it has actually already gone from sight. The continuum of time has no moments to grasp and to which we may attach our existence.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:42 pm

I'm not belittling the concept ...just how it is used as a tool to flaunt in front of the paying public....lol :tongue:

is it really going to give you supreme happiness....you can have full blown realization if thats how you want to call it or describe it....and still be depressed and unhappy or suffering...

you can know it's an illusionary fleeting moment...but the pain is still there.....
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Mr. G » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:51 pm

Rael wrote:....you can have full blown realization if thats how you want to call it or describe it....and still be depressed and unhappy or suffering...


You don't understand what you're talking about. Look up how Nirvana is defined.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Josef » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:32 pm

Rael wrote:
but for the sake of those actually wanting to learn something that one cannot speak about in this forum...

completion stage practices are all visual meditations except for a series of physical exercises that are aimed at the channels and the chakras...too much info?

Its not that you are giving away too much info, its that the info you are giving is grossly inaccurate.
kyerim is strongly based on visualization but even in kyerim its not "all visual".
In most cases dzogrim includes elements of visualization when the yogic exercises are applied but many of the essential methods of dzogrim are not at all "visual meditations".
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:38 pm

Rael wrote:I'm not belittling the concept ...just how it is used as a tool to flaunt in front of the paying public....lol :tongue:

is it really going to give you supreme happiness....you can have full blown realization if thats how you want to call it or describe it....and still be depressed and unhappy or suffering...

you can know it's an illusionary fleeting moment...but the pain is still there.....
A fleeting glimpse of emptiness or a conceptual grasp of it is not the same as its full realisation. Once fully realised false dualities of happiness and sadness, pain and pleasure, etc... no longer have validity. Even though nothing "out there" essentially has changed it suddenly appears as Dewachen, cackling hags become dakini, concrete becomes a soft and yielding surface, traffic noise the musical hum of Dharma recitation, etc...

When you see all beings as Buddhas then all actions they commit lead to enlightenment. The mahasiddhas had this capacity and thus were able to utilise the outwardly or seemingly unvirtuous and worldly actions of individual beings as the basis from which these beings could also attain the status/capacity of Mahasiddha.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:54 am

Rael wrote:I'm not belittling the concept ...just how it is used as a tool to flaunt in front of the paying public....lol :tongue:

is it really going to give you supreme happiness....you can have full blown realization if thats how you want to call it or describe it....and still be depressed and unhappy or suffering...

you can know it's an illusionary fleeting moment...but the pain is still there.....


Rael,

My following post is a tad long, but hopefully you will find it constructive and not adversarial:

With full realization of impermanence comes the collapse of one's false expectations of permanence and existence and thus one's attachment and shock when good experiences run out and bad experiences begin. Suffering is largely (but not entirely) based on false notions that agreeable things and experiences should somehow last; these notions of permanence that we cling to continually disappoint us, exaggerating our suffering further.

Of course, lack of realization of impermanence in and of itself is not the only reason we suffer. But when impermanence is on the forefront of our consciousness due to thorough contemplation and meditation on it, it sets off a natural chain reaction: we will acutely realize how little time we may have, so we'll stop wasting our precious human lives on pointless pursuits and obsessions and we'll deeply go for refuge in the Three Jewels, generate bodhicitta, and refine away distractedness and cultivate mindfulness.

As we realize how much others are still completely ensnared in hopeless and mistaken expectations about reality that continually bring them more suffering, our obsession with ourselves and the quality of our experience (i.e. pleasant or unpleasant, having or not having what we need, etc, etc.) will naturally begin to relax and shift toward compassion for others and concern for their experiences. We'll be more and more driven to DO something about their suffering. We'll also stop being fooled into putting all our energy into temporary fixes for them and work toward gaining the realization necessary to be of REAL help to them for as long as they need it, not just this short life.

Realizing impermanence can also lead quite naturally to penetrative insights into the emptiness of the self and of phenomena, which of course is the name of the whole game.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:02 am

Nangwa wrote:
Rael wrote:
but for the sake of those actually wanting to learn something that one cannot speak about in this forum...

completion stage practices are all visual meditations except for a series of physical exercises that are aimed at the channels and the chakras...too much info?

Its not that you are giving away too much info, its that the info you are giving is grossly inaccurate.
kyerim is strongly based on visualization but even in kyerim its not "all visual".
In most cases dzogrim includes elements of visualization when the yogic exercises are applied but many of the essential methods of dzogrim are not at all "visual meditations".


i wish you would have included this portion....lol...
One does use one's mind to sort of physically "force something that at first is visual meditation but eventually becomes physical"...or "plays with" ..with one's mind.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:16 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Rael wrote:I'm not belittling the concept ...just how it is used as a tool to flaunt in front of the paying public....lol :tongue:

is it really going to give you supreme happiness....you can have full blown realization if thats how you want to call it or describe it....and still be depressed and unhappy or suffering...

you can know it's an illusionary fleeting moment...but the pain is still there.....


Rael,

My following post is a tad long, but hopefully you will find it constructive and not adversarial:

With full realization of impermanence comes the collapse of one's false expectations of permanence and existence and thus one's attachment and shock when good experiences run out and bad experiences begin. Suffering is largely (but not entirely) based on false notions that agreeable things and experiences should somehow last; these notions of permanence that we cling to continually disappoint us, exaggerating our suffering further.

Of course, lack of realization of impermanence in and of itself is not the only reason we suffer. But when impermanence is on the forefront of our consciousness due to thorough contemplation and meditation on it, it sets off a natural chain reaction: we will acutely realize how little time we may have, so we'll stop wasting our precious human lives on pointless pursuits and obsessions and we'll deeply go for refuge in the Three Jewels, generate bodhicitta, and refine away distractedness and cultivate mindfulness.

As we realize how much others are still completely ensnared in hopeless and mistaken expectations about reality that continually bring them more suffering, our obsession with ourselves and the quality of our experience (i.e. pleasant or unpleasant, having or not having what we need, etc, etc.) will naturally begin to relax and shift toward compassion for others and concern for their experiences. We'll be more and more driven to DO something about their suffering. We'll also stop being fooled into putting all our energy into temporary fixes for them and work toward gaining the realization necessary to be of REAL help to them for as long as they need it, not just this short life.

Realizing impermanence can also lead quite naturally to penetrative insights into the emptiness of the self and of phenomena, which of course is the name of the whole game.


not just constructive but out right beautifully done....you write about it really nicely and i'm fond of such

i love Buddhist Dharma...always have.....

something that has cropped up before for me....surfaced again....then the you tube video sent shock waves of angst of this recurring thing i tried to describe here......

back to the OP....the title says it all.... I just can't stand back and not get what i'm trying to say i see out.....

you all know what i'm talking about...i'm not trashing everything...just the use of certain dharmas as some sort of panacea for mass consumption done in some carnivalesque......

it's like turning the dharma into Carney slum...that worthless stuff they give you if you win the first few rounds of knock down the milk bottles...

it's like using the word illusion in order to add mystique to the inability to actually give a lecture....

is Steven Seagal really a rinpoche
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby conebeckham » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:40 pm

Rael-
The physical, and visual, "exercises" you refer to as "completion stage" practice, and which you claim exist outside of Buddhism, are not the Completion Stage.
Put another way, skillful techniques for producing altered states in the body/mind, and the states those techniques produce, the "energy" you speak of, are not the Completion Stage of Buddhist Tantra. Yes, they relate to Completion Stage to a degree, but without proper training and understanding, they're just another temporary samsaric distraction. Great for Bliss Junkies, perhaps.......but also, perhaps, the cause of misunderstanding and worse.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Josef » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:51 pm

Rael wrote:....

is Steven Seagal really a rinpoche


No.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:13 pm

conebeckham wrote:Rael-
The physical, and visual, "exercises" you refer to as "completion stage" practice, and which you claim exist outside of Buddhism, are not the Completion Stage.
Put another way, skillful techniques for producing altered states in the body/mind, and the states those techniques produce, the "energy" you speak of, are not the Completion Stage of Buddhist Tantra. Yes, they relate to Completion Stage to a degree, but without proper training and understanding, they're just another temporary samsaric distraction. Great for Bliss Junkies, perhaps.......but also, perhaps, the cause of misunderstanding and worse.


you know ..i know trying to understand my writing is an exercise in futility at times...

i ate far too much acid at one time and it is contained in my fat cells along with a few pounds of THC...I've been dieting latlely and it is wrecking havoc across the internet....i apologize....ok i ate few chocolate bars to stem the tide and this should be a better post.....

completion stage yoga is not exlusive to Buddhist practice....ok I've tried HIC ing myself to sukavati and that is exlusive.....i think.....

mods edit what you will.......i'm trying to be careful here.....one sec i am going to eat a few chocolates and get back to you all........


Holy alchemy and those little pictures of angels in retorts and such....lil burning fires under them....sun and moon being pictured inside as well......

same diff.....sun and moon is the two channels angels are like visualizing yourself a Buddha...it gets rather secretive as well....but with a basic knowledge of both you see something....

it's like the Dharma Wheel being turned for the benefit of medieval European hippies....who , in order to survive , conned everyone in power with a promise of turning lead into gold....kept them happy with salt elixirs and such...

you can extract a salt from morning dew that has amazing properties ...anyway.....don't drink the mercury salt unless your sure it was refined proper.......but i digress....


ok note to bored....

sorry if i confuse my other maha practice ....i try to keep this stuff yana......
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:26 am

Rael wrote:is Steven Seagal really a rinpoche


My understanding is he was recognized to have formerly been a well-known practitioner with a lot of familiarity with tantric practice, but not necessarily an arya. That's according to my vague memory. Apologies to Tulku Seagal Rinpoche if I'm mistaken.

In the Tibetan tulku system, being a tulku may mean you're someone like I described above, or it may mean you're an arya bodhisattva or Buddha emanation. In a way, I can sorta see recognizing non-aryas as tulkus if they're very dedicated to the welfare of beings and the Dharma and are trying to resume their former activities, because recognition will greatly legitimize them in Tibetans' minds and drive their support of these activities. But a large part of me thinks it's usually rubbish. Not many great masters I've met, even tulkus themselves, think much of the tulku system anymore.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:41 am

Rael wrote:
completion stage yoga is not exlusive to Buddhist practice....ok I've tried HIC ing myself to sukavati and that is exlusive.....i think.....


There are certainly non-Buddhist yogas that superficially resemble Buddhist completion stage very closely. However, Buddhist completion stage depends on (1) faith and refuge in the Three Jewels and Three Roots, (2) receiving empowerment, transmission, and oral instruction from a Buddhist guru, (3) an understanding of emptiness as taught in Mahayana (i.e. either Madhyamaka or Cittamatra), and (4) cultivation of a deep meditative connection to a Buddha, which mirrors one's own true nature. These aspects and Buddhas are only found in Buddhism, therefore completion stage Vajrayana is exclusive to Buddhism. Even though the aspects worked with in completion stage practice are intrinsic to all human bodies, the difference between generating some mundane bliss and experiences and actually realizing emptiness are the interdependence created between a Yidam (a Buddha), one's own latent enlightened potential, and the pointing out of that nature by a realized guru; also essential are the instructions on the finer details of how Vajrayana Buddhism describes the subtle body and the key points of manipulating it properly, as well as the Mahayana view of emptiness that will eliminate fabrication and grasping to what's experienced. So again, this depends on Buddhism. No other system is quite the same.
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Re: Do you really think existence is an illusion

Postby Rael » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:49 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Rael wrote:
completion stage yoga is not exlusive to Buddhist practice....ok I've tried HIC ing myself to sukavati and that is exlusive.....i think.....


There are certainly non-Buddhist yogas that superficially resemble Buddhist completion stage very closely. However, Buddhist completion stage depends on (1) faith and refuge in the Three Jewels and Three Roots, (2) receiving empowerment, transmission, and oral instruction from a Buddhist guru, (3) an understanding of emptiness as taught in Mahayana (i.e. either Madhyamaka or Cittamatra), and (4) cultivation of a deep meditative connection to a Buddha, which mirrors one's own true nature. These aspects and Buddhas are only found in Buddhism, therefore completion stage Vajrayana is exclusive to Buddhism. Even though the aspects worked with in completion stage practice are intrinsic to all human bodies, the difference between generating some mundane bliss and experiences and actually realizing emptiness are the interdependence created between a Yidam (a Buddha), one's own latent enlightened potential, and the pointing out of that nature by a realized guru; also essential are the instructions on the finer details of how Vajrayana Buddhism describes the subtle body and the key points of manipulating it properly, as well as the Mahayana view of emptiness that will eliminate fabrication and grasping to what's experienced. So again, this depends on Buddhism. No other system is quite the same.


dogma....pure dogma....

how is this unlike the Catholic Church claiming to be god's one true Church or the only real entry into heaven....
I don't believe in God....i'm using the catholics and their dogma as an example...

I find it utterly dogmatic to assume none other than Buddhist and Buddhas, which a mere labels, can achieve this....

Lord Buddha never refereed to Himself or His Students as Buddhists....but thats a weak argument...

i dunno ... sectarianism gone the way of dogma at it's worst....

you can usually tell when something like this
There are certainly non-Buddhist yogas that superficially resemble Buddhist completion stage very closely

opinion expressed like an edict ...is supposed to be fact

sad....and so untrue...unfair....and small of you....

but press on....soldier on ....

why not have a book burning...i love a bonfire....
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