conebeckham wrote:Actually, according to "Tibetan High Tulku Hierarchy," HH Sakya Trizin is the number two guy....HH Karmapa is third in line....if you care about such things. From a purely political point of view, the Panchen Lama would be the number two guy, at least in recent Tibetan historical terms.
In Tibet, you know, politcs and tulkus went together. Although HH Orgyen Tinley Dorje stated something to the effect that Karmapas have never been involved in politics, that's not entirely true. At various times throughout Tibetan history, HH Karmapa, HH Sakya Trizin, and other high tulkus inside and outside the Geluk lineage have played political roles, both in Tibet, and in China, Mongolia and other lands bordering "Tibet" proper.
It's possible that the Tibetan Government structure will move toward a more democratic model, and less direct influence from High Lamas may be part of that. Also notable that, in Tibetan politics, the Geluk order has been the most influential for more than a century, and I would wonder about the Tibetan political machine supporting a move toward Kagyu power. It's my wish that all of the institutional lineages remain relevant, and equal, and that Lamas focus on propagating the Dharma instead of involving themselves primarily in politics. But, you know, public figures are political by nature.
As for the "Tibetan Cause" having a figurehead on the World Stage, I don't know what will happen.
Frankly, the "politics" thing is used to somehow imply that some Lamas are somehow "less spiritual" (let's say, "less concerned with the primacy of transmssion and practice of Dharma," to flesh it out a bit more) when they "engage in politics."
Conversely, to be "non-political" as a Lama implies that one is "spiritually pure" presumably because one does not involve one's Dharma with samsaric activity...at least, that is how I understand the issue.
I do suppose that if one were truly a political figure, i.e., involved in government affairs, the burden of such involvement may leave one less time for formal practice and transmission, etc. Though HH the Dalai Lama seems to get in more hours of practice per day than most of us "non-political" shleps with day jobs.....
It is to be noted that, as far as I can tell, there are only two organizations that apply this dichotomy to High Lamas..one of them has direct bearing on the subject of this thread.
sherabpa wrote:The only meaningful ranking of lamas from the four sects is a political one. Any other ranking is a step towards dissolution of the schools into the Gelug.
I do not equate a political Karmapa with Kagyu power: the point is again that a political Karmapa goes hand in hand with the dissolution of the Kagyu in accord with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
arisaema81 wrote:conebeckham wrote:According to this news story, New Delhi has now recgonized HH Orgyen Tinley Dorje officially.
In this case can HH Karmapa finally go to Rumtek?
This is scary stuff. Maybe the real reason HHDL is close to HHK is to convert him to the Gelugpa - another sneaky trick to neutralize the Kagyu. I knew there was something sinister going on the first time I saw these two Buddhist monks showing respect for each other. Someone should warn Sakya Trizin and Mindrolling Rinpoche before it's too late. Incredible and it just sounds so plausible. Who would have thought there was an active conspiracy to destroy Tibetan Buddhism master-minded by none other than HHDL himself. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
arisaema81 wrote: In this case can HH Karmapa finally go to Rumtek?
conebeckham wrote: Something actually DID happen.....
Tilopa wrote:arisaema81 wrote: In this case can HH Karmapa finally go to Rumtek?
Not necessarily. The article says the Indian Government has recognized HHK as a religious leader not the undisputed head of the Karma Kagyu tradition.
Asia Times Online wrote:New Delhi's decision to recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa - the second-highest Tibetan monk after the Dalai Lama - is a major policy shift. Indian authorities had not trusted Trinley Dorje since his dramatic escape from Tibet to India in 2000, as he is the first reincarnation of a high lama officially accepted by the communist government of China.
MJH wrote:Well, actually the article states:Asia Times Online wrote:New Delhi's decision to recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa - the second-highest Tibetan monk after the Dalai Lama - is a major policy shift. Indian authorities had not trusted Trinley Dorje since his dramatic escape from Tibet to India in 2000, as he is the first reincarnation of a high lama officially accepted by the communist government of China.
No worries I would love to see this reported somewhere else. I tried a rather quick google search, but I haven't been able to find anything yet.Tilopa wrote:thanks.
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