Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:37 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:59 pm

Is there a sutta in the pali canon excluding the abhidhamma that states that cause and effect can have a large time delay?
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:14 pm


meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:45 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:51 pm

I dont see how "'From the arising of this comes the arising of that" shows how there is a gap between cause and effect that covers lifetimes.
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meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:11 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:10 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:13 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:15 pm

In MN 38, the Buddha states clearly the stream of dependent origination arises all the way to dukkha 'when the eye sees the form', 'when the ear hears the sound', etc.

Similarly, the Lord advised it quenches in the same way...'when the eye sees the form...', etc...

The arising and cessation is momentary.
Last edited by Element on Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:19 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:59 pm

There is another passage that i have come accross that does seem to contradict the 3 lives interpretation despite being cited by bhikkhu bodhi as evidence of it in his introduction to the Book of Causation, its in the SN - Book of Causation - 19.

"Bhikkhus, for the wise mand, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body originated. For the wise man that ignorance has been abandoned and that craving has been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the wise man has lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to body. Not faring onto body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and dispair, freed from suffering, I say"

Now a few important things to note here, at first glance it seems to say that this is discussing physical death but i do not believe that is the intent, first of all it says the breakup of the "body" and not the breakup of the aggregates which i feel would have been used if it meant literal death.

Second of all this states that when the body breaks up one is free, enlightened. Now if you take break up of the body to mean literal death then it seems you assert that while still living there will still be dukkha. However this is contrary to the buddhas promise that one can be liberated from all dukkha right now, in this very moment and not have to wait for death. Therefor you can only interpret this not as literal death of the "body".


That is my interpretation anyway :smile:
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meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:43 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:00 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:29 pm

"Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to body. Not faring onto body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and dispair, freed from suffering, I say"


The key here is "freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and dispair, freed from suffering, I say" these are mental dukkha that arise through ignorance. It states that one is only free from them when one does not fare on to another body. If you take it as literal body/death then you assert that one cannot be free from dukkha and enlightened in this moment as this passage states that with the breakup of the body one is freed from suffering, physical and mental.

If you take this with birth etc meaning "I" moments then it keeps in line with freedom in this very moment. By not faring onto another false "birth" of a sense of self or "I" then one does not experience dukkha ever again.

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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:55 pm


meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:11 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:16 pm

There is still the problem of when there is cesstation fo D.O. it states that Name and Form comes to cesstation. Would this mean that then one would infact die after enlightenment. Also it states that contact leads to feeling and then onto cravin.... birth. Contact happens all the time so can only be moment to moment and also that consciousness depends on name and form and name and form on consciousness so how can anything go past physical death? (I realise i have said this before but feel it is important) and also the suttas themselves dont really state that D.O. covers anything more than this life/moment.


P.S. thank you for your posts they are quite challenging which is good :smile:

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meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:21 pm


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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:24 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:28 pm

I did read the extract and it does seem reasonable however i do not see any evidence of it acctualy being in the suttas.

From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

To me that just says that in the next moment if there is, for example, contact there will be craving. Doesnt mean it has to be three lives.

In reguard to your earlier post:

[quote=]You cut out the first part of the quote It says " freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and dispair, freed from suffering, I say"[/quote]

Birth just means the birth of the sense of "I" arising from contact, feeling and craving.

MN - 44:

Saying, "Yes, lady," Visakha the lay follower delighted & rejoiced in what Dhammadinna the nun had said. Then he asked her a further question: "'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

The "birth" is of the sense of I through contact.

If you are saying that the body refers to literal physical body/birth there is a sutta that states that the physical body originates from the 4 elements.

"The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the material form aggregate"

This debate does seem to be getting circular however, anyone else got something to add?

Also sorry if im causing you frustration.

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Craig
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