Cops raid at the Karmapas office

sherabpa
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:04 pm

The only meaningful ranking of lamas from the four sects is a political one. Any other ranking is a step towards dissolution of the schools into the Gelug.

I do not equate a political Karmapa with Kagyu power: the point is again that a political Karmapa goes hand in hand with the dissolution of the Kagyu in accord with the wishes of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

As for resistance to a political Karmapa from hardline Gelugpas - see the NKT and their eastern counterparts.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Blue Garuda » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:17 pm

Left

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:18 pm

I believe, Yeshe, that it is inevitable. And I agree with Sherabpa that any "ranking" across lineages is solely political in nature.

I think (and hope, frankly) that an explicitly political dimension to Tibetan Dharma is on the way out. But it will take time.

I do not, however, agree with Sherabpa that the Dalai Lama wishes to consolidate all four lineages. There's history there, but I think it is poorly understood.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:34 pm



According to this news story, New Delhi has now recgonized HH Orgyen Tinley Dorje officially.
This story also says that the money was "indeed legitimate donations from various nations."

There's a bunch of other stuff in this article about various conspiracy theories, as well...and a discussion of India's problems with regard to state and federal levels of gov't.

In any case, the site is featuring news about religious and Losar observances.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby heart » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:06 pm

I don't understand all this paranoia and talk about politics.

The Dalai Lama was the king of Tibet. He still is a Tulku with his own monastery. He have never been the head of the Gelug. He is definitely a lama in the spirit of Rimey, he is taking teachings and teaching from all lineages including the Bon. He have said since the 60s that he is the last Dalai Lama and that he want the Tibetan people to have democracy. If he is close to the Karmapa it is without doubt just because they have a teacher-disciple relationship. So what is this paranoia based in? Some ridiculous articles written by some ill-informed journalists?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:53 pm

Magnus-

Frankly, the "politics" thing is used to somehow imply that some Lamas are somehow "less spiritual" (let's say, "less concerned with the primacy of transmssion and practice of Dharma," to flesh it out a bit more) when they "engage in politics."

Conversely, to be "non-political" as a Lama implies that one is "spiritually pure" presumably because one does not involve one's Dharma with samsaric activity...at least, that is how I understand the issue.

I do suppose that if one were truly a political figure, i.e., involved in government affairs, the burden of such involvement may leave one less time for formal practice and transmission, etc. Though HH the Dalai Lama seems to get in more hours of practice per day than most of us "non-political" shleps with day jobs.....

It is to be noted that, as far as I can tell, there are only two organizations that apply this dichotomy to High Lamas..one of them has direct bearing on the subject of this thread.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby heart » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:40 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby arisaema81 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:21 pm


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:33 pm

Last edited by Tilopa on Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:37 pm


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby MJH » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:46 pm



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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:51 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Tilopa
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:52 pm


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:58 pm


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MJH
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby MJH » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:08 am



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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:37 am


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby MJH » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:23 am



benchen
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby benchen » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:30 pm

Gelupa is also mahamudra practitioner

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Grigoris
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:23 pm

No matter who recognises what, samsara will still be samsara!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:11 pm

Being completely apart from all this, I think the whole situation is sad. The Karmapa's issue, the politics involved, the money, etc.
To someone outside the Dharma, reading about these subjects only leads Dharma into disrepute. Maybe ill informed disrepute, but nothing good comes out of these situations. But shit happens. I mean, there's people, there're monasteries, there're refugees... it's impossible that money doesn't enter the picture. Nothing get's accomplished without money these days. People just need to be very careful when dealing with it. Either one adapts or one will have problems when dealing with large sums. That's simply the way it is. If one wants to deal with money informally, better not having large sums. Better living in a small house or in a cave, like Chatral Rinpoche. When having loads of money, better to be really rigorous with book keeping. Modern times demand such careful approach. Otherwise, problems are bound to occur. I hope a lesson was learned, not only by the involved, but generally.

The problem is that these are old news, rather than new. In Tibet there were always similar cases in different schools.
Power struggles, political influence, doctrinal hegemony... I hoped these things had been left in old Tibet. With the Chinese occupation I hopped a new awareness of the frailty of our human projects would arise and old bad habits were lost or profoundly changed; and with the diaspora I wished that we could have had some sort of "Tibetan Buddhism renaissance" that flushed away all the petty quarrels that were so frequent in "Institutionalized Dharma". Alas, I'm a naive fool. It only happened in a small scale.
Maybe that's why I'm so prone to look for lamas without attachment to offices, possessions, thrones, thus avoiding "Dharmic superstars" who wanting it or not are bound to find themselves immersed in unpleasant situations. We better take care of our view if we have such Lamas. Their life is bound to have problems and this means we need to be even better practitioners. I think it is easier to have a Lama with little institutional relevance.

I hope I'm not offending anyone with my posting. I really have no opinion about any of the Karmapa's, only sadness about the whole situation. It doesn't help the Tibetan cause at all. Best is if it never had happened, but welcome to samsara. This is a real circus!


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