Cops raid at the Karmapas office

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Mr. G
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Mr. G » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:28 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:07 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Mr. G » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:39 pm

:offtopic: :focus:

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:21 pm

The "Buktham Rinpoche," or letter from HHDL regarding Karmapa incarnations, is an institution that's been around for some time, Greg.....while it's true that HHDL didn't have direct involvement in recognition, I'd argue that he doesn't now, either....yes, I know about the vision he says he had, etc., but this was only after HE Tai Situ Rinpoche brought the "nomination" before HHDL. Fact is, there has been indirect involvement from HHDL in past incarnations.

Also, lest we forget, HE Shamar Rinpoche originally agreed with everyone else re HHGK Orgyen Tinlay Dorje, before changing his tack.....but let's not rehash the whole thing, eh? It serves no purspose.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:30 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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MJH
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby MJH » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:50 pm

The latest news that I've seen. Sorry, it's in Norwegian but a quick run through a translater helps a bit
Original:

Translation:

From the (translated) intro: The 17 Karmapa will not be arrested or prosecuted, either for money laundering or tax evasion. But Buddhist holiness is asked to familiarize themselves with the Indian rules, and acquire a business.
:twothumbsup:


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:20 pm

Those in this thread previously whining about the quality of Indian reporting of the Karmapa case cannot fail to have noticed a stream of pro-Orgyen Thinley editorial pieces published in the mainstream Indian press:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 583798.cms
http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... USSED&th=1
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 65584.aspx
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed ... 62821.aspx


I see in the latest piece ('The Karmapa is an icon he deserves more respect') Orgyen Thinley has been promoted from his previous position as 'the third highest figure in Tibetan Buddhism' to being 'like the Archbishop of Canterbury or head of the Greek Orthodox Church, second only to the pope'.

The irony is exquisite.

I wonder what the Archbishop of Canterbury, and indeed the Patriarch of Constantinople, would make of having to report to the Pope? Something similar, I think, to what Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje would have made at having to report to the Dalai Lama.

The future actions of Orgyen Thinley in this matter will demonstrate whether or not he is indeed the incarnation of Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje far better than any prediction letter, or recognition by senior Kagyu Tulkus, or by the Dalai Lama. Karmapas have, after all, always been self-recognizing.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:32 am

Last edited by conebeckham on Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:34 pm

For me, things will only become clear in the long term. The retirement of the Dalai Lama from political life could see some quite drastic changes in the Tibetan political landscape. If Orgyen Thinley is to take up a very central political role, as many of his followers want him to do, what will be the effect on the Karma Kagyu school? The danger is that, against Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje's wishes, the distinction between Kagyu and Gelug becomes more and more eroded as the transmission lineages are blended together. Likewise, the distinction between the heads of the lineages, and leaders of the Tibetan government in exile, may become more and more eroded.

Dharma friends of mine who are supporters of Orgyen Thinley assure me his is committed to the autonomy of the Kagyu tradition. I hope they are right; if he succeeds in protecting the Kagyu from political interference, and ultimately from dissolultion as an autonomous lineage, it will convince me that he carries the blessing of Rangjung Rigpa'i Dorje. Nobody doubts he carries the blessings of H.H. Dalai Lama, of course - but this is not the same as being the Karmapa.

Of course, many don't care about such distinctions. That is fine; I am merely pointing out that they were important to the 16th Karmapa.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:57 pm


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:13 pm


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:08 pm

I suppose the question could be, "Which Holy Lamas one has faith in?" Whether that faith is blind or not is another matter.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:17 pm


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:32 pm

Yes, and a common ground we can all agree on is that the 16th Karmapa wanted to retain the autonomy of the Kagyu school from the Gelug, and was not interested in becoming a politician.

Now in the interests of clear-headed, rational, open faith: why does Ogyen Trinley seem to be becoming a politician, and one who is, according to many of his followers, a subordinate of the Dalai Lama?

Is it that he changed his mind about these matters? If so, what were his reasons?
Is it that incarnation lineages do not necessarily share the intentions of their predecessors, that 'things change'? If so, what meaning is there to being a reincarnation of Karmapa? Why should anyone care who Ogyen Trinley was in a previous life?
Or will Ogyen Trinley, as I have been told, resist these changes, despite the efforts of his followers to usher them in?

If Ogyen Trinley has somewhere denied he is a subordinate or successor of the Dalai Lama, as I have been told he did, can someone direct me to that?

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby justsit » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:54 pm

"...However, in the 900 years of their history the Karmapas have been entirely spiritual, even as gurus to the emperors of China in the 12th century. "For … 900 years," he told the Times of India in March 2009, "the Karmapa has been a very apolitical figure … who has concentrated solely on spiritual leadership, not involved in any way with governmental leadership. So I think it would be very difficult to change that historical pattern overnight and turn the role of the Karmapa into something more than strictly a spiritual teacher."

When I met him in November, he reiterated that his spiritual role required freedom of movement. "Traditionally the Karmapa travelled a lot to different places to meet the people who wanted to see him. Ever since I became the Karmapa I lost my personal freedom and choice but I have gained the opportunity of benefiting others. But sometimes I cannot play the role of Karmapa anymore. I don't have the right environment."

What distresses him is to be caught in the game of politics. The Indian government have offered no explanation for denying him permission to travel. When they cancelled the 2010 Europe tour, word leaked out that the tour was "too big and for too long". Nonetheless, simpler itineraries over shorter periods were also turned down without explanation.

Now for the first time he categorically disclaims any possibility of succession to the Dalai Lama. Clearly the strain was becoming intolerable.

"There is already a system in place for the Dalai Lama's regency. It is not necessary to already be an important public figure in order to become the regent, if one has the capability. I have the responsibility of being the spiritual leader of a lineage and I don't need extra responsibility. I cannot do beyond what a human being can do. The name "Karmapa" means the one who takes responsibility for all the buddhas' activities. This is overwhelming enough. I don't need more."

-interview with The Guardian, December 1, 2010

Read the entire article .

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:14 pm

Yes, he's been pretty clear about his lack of interest in politics.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:55 pm


sherabpa
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:02 pm

When it is claimed that Ogyen Trinley is the second ranking lama in Tibetan Buddhism, as we often hear nowadays, it is not the guru-disciple relationship that it being referred to. The Dalai Lama has many disciples, but only one second ranking lama. What is being claimed is that Karmapa is the subordinate of the Dalai Lama and, in some unexplained sense, his successor.

Anyway, thank you for the link to the Guardian article. Obviously, most Tibetans do not read the Guardian - perhaps this explains why so many of them seem to be acting in contradiction to the wishes Orgyen Trinley has expressed there.

The article also gives us something empirical to consider. We can all agree on this: Karmapas keep their promises, politicians break them. When we look at the state of Tibetan Buddhism in 10 or 20 years time, what will we see? If we see a Karmapa with no involvement in politics, and an independent Kagyu school, then we will have seen something worthy of the title 'Karmapa'. Otherwise, we will have seem something worthy of the title 'politician'.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:11 pm


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:47 pm

Actually, according to "Tibetan High Tulku Hierarchy," HH Sakya Trizin is the number two guy....HH Karmapa is third in line....if you care about such things. From a purely political point of view, the Panchen Lama would be the number two guy, at least in recent Tibetan historical terms.

In Tibet, you know, politcs and tulkus went together. Although HH Orgyen Tinley Dorje stated something to the effect that Karmapas have never been involved in politics, that's not entirely true. At various times throughout Tibetan history, HH Karmapa, HH Sakya Trizin, and other high tulkus inside and outside the Geluk lineage have played political roles, both in Tibet, and in China, Mongolia and other lands bordering "Tibet" proper.

It's possible that the Tibetan Government structure will move toward a more democratic model, and less direct influence from High Lamas may be part of that. Also notable that, in Tibetan politics, the Geluk order has been the most influential for more than a century, and I would wonder about the Tibetan political machine supporting a move toward Kagyu power. It's my wish that all of the institutional lineages remain relevant, and equal, and that Lamas focus on propagating the Dharma instead of involving themselves primarily in politics. But, you know, public figures are political by nature.

As for the "Tibetan Cause" having a figurehead on the World Stage, I don't know what will happen.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")


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