Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

dzoki
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Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby dzoki » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Hy guys,

just came across this web page. Quite interesting. I wish Martsang and other minor kagyu lineages are still alive and well somewhere in Tibet.

http://www.buddhistmeditation.org.uk/

What do you think? Is this authentic?

I know Barom Kagyu was thought to be almost dead, yet it is thriving in Tibet itself and also started to found its centers in Malaysia and elswhere.

And here I found Tsalpa Kagyu web.

http://www.tsalpa.org/

Though it does not offer much info.

Any info on Yelpa/Yelpa, Yazang, Shugseb and Trophu Kagyus? (That is are they still active?)

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kirtu
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:19 pm

dzoki wrote:http://www.buddhistmeditation.org.uk/

What do you think? Is this authentic?

I know Barom Kagyu was thought to be almost dead, yet it is thriving in Tibet itself and also started to found its centers in Malaysia and elswhere.

And here I found Tsalpa Kagyu web.

http://www.tsalpa.org/

Though it does not offer much info.

Any info on Yelpa/Yelpa, Yazang, Shugseb and Trophu Kagyus? (That is are they still active?)


Gosh who knows? I read recently that Hugh Leslie Thompson had asked HE Kalu Rinpoche early on if the Shangpa Kagyu still existed and Kalu Rinpoche replied that they had died out!

There are little lineages around but so little is known about them outside the Tibetan/Himalayan world. It was stunning just about 10 years ago when the Jonang were confirmed to have survived as both an institutional and teaching lineage.

Maybe Jamgon Kongtrul has a survey of lineages as part of the Rinchen Terzod or other writings and maybe we could see what actually had survived up to the end of the 19th century and maybe take it from there.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

ngodrup
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby ngodrup » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:27 pm

Martsang was absorbed by the Palyul tradition of the Nyingma.
Tshalpa is now Gelug and administrated by Sera.

But several lineages such Barom, drikung, Drukpa, Taklung, and Shangpa are still alive.

peteralanroberts
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby peteralanroberts » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:43 am

Gangri Karma RInpoche, the holder of the Martsang Kagyu is settign up Martsang Kagyu centers outside Tibet. The Yelpa, Yasang and Tropu Kagyu have some monasteries and important teachers in TIbet. Of the eight secondary lineages coming from Pamodrupa only the Shuksep appears to have ceased in that it became a Nyingma institution. There are numerous Barom Kagyu monasteries in Golog.

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conebeckham
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:56 am

Hey, Welcome to the list, Peter Allan Roberts. Good to have you here--I think we will benefit!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
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narraboth
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby narraboth » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:51 pm

specially, gangri karma rinpoche this life is thought to be under Sayka system.
I met him many times in taiwan, now he lives in the UK. I met him in London Chinatown when HH Sakya Trichin visited London.

peteralanroberts wrote:Gangri Karma RInpoche, the holder of the Martsang Kagyu is settign up Martsang Kagyu centers outside Tibet. The Yelpa, Yasang and Tropu Kagyu have some monasteries and important teachers in TIbet. Of the eight secondary lineages coming from Pamodrupa only the Shuksep appears to have ceased in that it became a Nyingma institution. There are numerous Barom Kagyu monasteries in Golog.

kunchok89
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby kunchok89 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:35 am

Dear All,

Martsang Kagyu is exactly still alive! The H.E. Gangri Karma Rinpoche is authorized in this lineage.

Some of people said that Martsang was absorbed by the Palyul tradition of the Nyingma. However, I have asked the Jhonkuo Rinpoche who is the highest leader of Palyul tradition of the Nyingma in Tibet, Rinpoche said that it is never to has the lineage of Martsang Kagyu in the Palyul tradition of the Nyingma. The Jhonkuo Rinpoche is over 80 years old now.

The H.H. the Sakya Trizin is one of masters for H.E. Gangri Karma Rinpoche in this life, but Gangri Karma Rinpoche is not under Sakya system! we can easy to find out the authentication from literature review of tradition Tibet Buddhism.

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kirtu
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:14 pm

peteralanroberts wrote:Of the eight secondary lineages coming from Pamodrupa only the Shuksep appears to have ceased in that it became a Nyingma institution.


What is the history of the Shuksep lineage?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby Jangchup Donden » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:34 am

dzoki wrote:I know Barom Kagyu was thought to be almost dead, yet it is thriving in Tibet itself and also started to found its centers in Malaysia and elswhere.


The first Barway Dorje revived the Barom Kagyu lineages and Bardor Tulku Rinpoche (the 3rd Barway Dorje) is going to be starting to teach Barom Kagyu Mahamudra this month (March 19th and 20th) at Kunzang Palchen Ling; which I think is the first time he's given these teachings (at least publicly). They should be very special.

http://kunzang.org/

So if we're lucky, the Barom Kagyu lineage will begin to flourish here in the west as well.

narraboth
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby narraboth » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:45 pm

kunchok89 wrote:Dear All,

Martsang Kagyu is exactly still alive! The H.E. Gangri Karma Rinpoche is authorized in this lineage.

Some of people said that Martsang was absorbed by the Palyul tradition of the Nyingma. However, I have asked the Jhonkuo Rinpoche who is the highest leader of Palyul tradition of the Nyingma in Tibet, Rinpoche said that it is never to has the lineage of Martsang Kagyu in the Palyul tradition of the Nyingma. The Jhonkuo Rinpoche is over 80 years old now.

The H.H. the Sakya Trizin is one of masters for H.E. Gangri Karma Rinpoche in this life, but Gangri Karma Rinpoche is not under Sakya system! we can easy to find out the authentication from literature review of tradition Tibet Buddhism.


I don't think Rinpoche will agree that HH Sakya Trizin is just 'one of masters'. I remember he told us many times: HH Sakya Trizin is his root guru.
And if you check Rinpoche's Chinese brief biography, who are his other teachers? Khenchen Kungar Wangchuk, Luding Khen Rinpoche...
Rinpoche told us he has both Sakya and Martsan Kagyu lineage, but he mostly taught Sakya teaching in Taiwan. He also spent a lot of time doing Sakya lineage retreat etc.
It's good that the new centre in the UK mainly focus Martsan Kagyu lineage, I rejoice rinpoche's wish. However, indeed Rinpoche in this life was recognised by, taught by, and trained by Sakya system, we can't ignore that.
(But I am not very sure why HH Sakya Trizin would have involved in a Martsan Kagyu leader's recognition, must have a historical reason)

Jhonkuo Rinpoche? I think you mean Kyabje Jongkam Rinpoche tulku Tuksung (actually the same as Jamkang Rinpoche, as Rinpoche himself told me). A truly great master who was classmate of HH Penor Rinpoche. I have never heard about Martsan Kagyu lineage in Palyul lineage either.

Finest
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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby Finest » Sun May 01, 2011 10:32 pm

སྨར་ཚང་བསྟན་པ་རྒྱས་པའི་སྨོན་ལམ།

བསྟན་པ་གངས་རིར་སྲི་ཞུའི་ཆུ་རྒྱུན་གྱིས། །ཚོགས་གཉིས་རྨད་ལྗོངས་ཡོན་ཏན་པདྨོ་ལས། །
འཕྲིནལས་འདས་རྒྱས་ལམ་ཟབ་འཛུམ་བཞདནས། །སྐལ་བཟང་བདེ་སྟོང་སྦྲང་རྪིར་རོལ་གྱུར་ཅིག །
གཟུང་འཛིན་རྦ་རློབས་བྱིང་རྒོད་འཕྱུར་བ་ཀུན། །གཡོ་མེད་སེམས་མཆོག་ཆུ་བོ་གཅིག་བསྒྲིལ་ཏེ། །
ཞི་ལྷག་རྒྱ་མཚོ་ངང་ཚུལ་བརྟེན་བྱས་ནས། །སྐུ་བཞི་བརྙེས་མཛད་སྨར་ཚང་རྒྱས་གྱུར་ཅིག །
མཁས་མང་རྒྱ་མཚོར་རྟོགས་ལྡན་ངང་པོའི་ཁྱུ། །སྒོམ་ལྔའི་སྒྲོ་རྒྱས་སྟོང་ཉིད་རླུང་ཤུགས་ཀྱིས། །
ཡེ་ཤེས་ལྔ་ཡི་མཁའ་ལ་ལྡིང་བྱེད་པའི། །སྨར་ཚང་བཤད་སྒྲུབ་འཛམ་གླིང་ཁྱབ་གྱུར་ཅིག །
ཤོ་ཙོམ་ཉི་ཟླ་མུན་སེལ་ཟུང་གཅིག་སྲོལ། །དུས་ཀྱི་དབང་གིས་ནུབ་དུ་གཤེགས་གྱུར་ཀྱང་། །
སླར་གསོ་འདུན་སྡེ་སྐྱ་རེངས་མྱུར་ཤར་ནས། །མཁས་གྲུབ་ཉིན་བྱེད་རིང་ལུགས་གསལ་གྱུར་ཅིག །
ཡེ་ཤེས་སྤྱན་ལྡན་སྨར་ཚང་ཆོས་སྲུང་ཀུན། །གཡེང་དུས་ལས་བཞེངས་བསྟན་དགྲ་ཚར་ཆོད་ནས། །
བསྟན་འཛིན་སྦྱིན་བདག་མངའ་ཐང་མྱུར་རྒྱས་ཏེ། །བཀྲ་ཤིས་སྙན་གྲགས་སྲིད་གསུམ་ཁྱབ་པར་མཛོད། །

ཅེས་སྨོན་ལམ་འདི་སྨར་ཚང་བཀའ་བརྒྱུད་ཀྱི་དྲ་རྒྱ་ཐོག་ནས་ཕབ་བཤུས་བྱས་པ་ཡིན་ལ་རྩོམ་འདི་བྲིས་མཁན་
གངས་རི་ཀརྨ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་མཆོག་ཡིན་པ་འདྲ་། ང་རང་བོད་ཡིག་ཡག་པོ་ཤེས་ཀྱི་མེད་པས་བྲིས་ནོར་འདུག་ན་བཟོད་པ་བཞེས་རོགས།
ཁོང་གིས་རྩོམ་འདི་ལ་ང་རང་དགའ་པོ་བྱུང་ཙམ་འདི་ལ་བྲིས་པ་ཡིན། Will[/size]

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Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby purple rose » Sun May 01, 2011 10:45 pm

Finest wrote:སྨར་ཚང་བསྟན་པ་རྒྱས་པའི་སྨོན་ལམ།

བསྟན་པ་གངས་རིར་སྲི་ཞུའི་ཆུ་རྒྱུན་གྱིས། །ཚོགས་གཉིས་རྨད་ལྗོངས་ཡོན་ཏན་པདྨོ་ལས། །
འཕྲིནལས་འདས་རྒྱས་ལམ་ཟབ་འཛུམ་བཞདནས། །སྐལ་བཟང་བདེ་སྟོང་སྦྲང་རྪིར་རོལ་གྱུར་ཅིག །
གཟུང་འཛིན་རྦ་རློབས་བྱིང་རྒོད་འཕྱུར་བ་ཀུན། །གཡོ་མེད་སེམས་མཆོག་ཆུ་བོ་གཅིག་བསྒྲིལ་ཏེ། །
ཞི་ལྷག་རྒྱ་མཚོ་ངང་ཚུལ་བརྟེན་བྱས་ནས། །སྐུ་བཞི་བརྙེས་མཛད་སྨར་ཚང་རྒྱས་གྱུར་ཅིག །
མཁས་མང་རྒྱ་མཚོར་རྟོགས་ལྡན་ངང་པོའི་ཁྱུ། །སྒོམ་ལྔའི་སྒྲོ་རྒྱས་སྟོང་ཉིད་རླུང་ཤུགས་ཀྱིས། །
ཡེ་ཤེས་ལྔ་ཡི་མཁའ་ལ་ལྡིང་བྱེད་པའི། །སྨར་ཚང་བཤད་སྒྲུབ་འཛམ་གླིང་ཁྱབ་གྱུར་ཅིག །
ཤོ་ཙོམ་ཉི་ཟླ་མུན་སེལ་ཟུང་གཅིག་སྲོལ། །དུས་ཀྱི་དབང་གིས་ནུབ་དུ་གཤེགས་གྱུར་ཀྱང་། །
སླར་གསོ་འདུན་སྡེ་སྐྱ་རེངས་མྱུར་ཤར་ནས། །མཁས་གྲུབ་ཉིན་བྱེད་རིང་ལུགས་གསལ་གྱུར་ཅིག །
ཡེ་ཤེས་སྤྱན་ལྡན་སྨར་ཚང་ཆོས་སྲུང་ཀུན། །གཡེང་དུས་ལས་བཞེངས་བསྟན་དགྲ་ཚར་ཆོད་ནས། །
བསྟན་འཛིན་སྦྱིན་བདག་མངའ་ཐང་མྱུར་རྒྱས་ཏེ། །བཀྲ་ཤིས་སྙན་གྲགས་སྲིད་གསུམ་ཁྱབ་པར་མཛོད། །

ཅེས་སྨོན་ལམ་འདི་སྨར་ཚང་བཀའ་བརྒྱུད་ཀྱི་དྲ་རྒྱ་ཐོག་ནས་ཕབ་བཤུས་བྱས་པ་ཡིན་ལ་རྩོམ་འདི་བྲིས་མཁན་
གངས་རི་ཀརྨ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་མཆོག་ཡིན་པ་འདྲ་། ང་རང་བོད་ཡིག་ཡག་པོ་ཤེས་ཀྱི་མེད་པས་བྲིས་ནོར་འདུག་ན་བཟོད་པ་བཞེས་རོགས།
ཁོང་གིས་རྩོམ་འདི་ལ་ང་རང་དགའ་པོ་བྱུང་ཙམ་འདི་ལ་བྲིས་པ་ཡིན། Will[/size]


Hi Finest, welcome to Dharma Wheel,

Please supply a translation for the above, for the benefit of the members of Dharma Wheel are not able to read Tibetan. The custom for this website is to write in English or supply an English translation when writing posts. Thank you for your co-operation.

Regards,
rt

mahabuddha
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 3:33 am

Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby mahabuddha » Tue May 24, 2011 3:36 am

Drikung Kagyu is alive and well. Our lineage is thriving and being re-established all over the world. http://www.drikung.org

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MJH
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:01 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby MJH » Tue May 24, 2011 5:28 pm

mahabuddha wrote:Drikung Kagyu is alive and well.


Very true! In fact, we were blessed to have a group of monks from Tserkarmo Monastery visit us last year.

phpBB [video]


They were excellent representatives of Drikung Kagyu and I hope to see them again soon. :smile:
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kunchok89
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:47 am

Re: Martsang Kagyu and other smaller Kagyus alive?

Postby kunchok89 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:32 pm

Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Q: If it is asked: When did the unfounded claims - that the Martsang Kagyu tradition is mixed with other religious traditions, that it is broken, or has dissolved into other traditions - commence or where does its basic discussion have its origin ?

A:
1.In the Western year 1984 a Chinese elder ,Chang, Yi-Suen, wrote in the last volume of the great Tibetan-Chinese dictionary that “MartsangSherabSenge was the founder of the Martsang Kagyu tradition, that later on this tradition merged with the NyingmaPeyul tradition in a place called Kham, and that the reincarnated masters of this tradition are referred to as the Karmapas”.

It appears that Chang, Yi-Suen did not at all know the name of the founder of the Martsang tradition, MarpaSherabYeshe, as Chang, Yi-Suen incorrectly claims SherabSenge to be its founder.

Suppose one would accept that what is being said in this paragraph is true and the Martsang tradition is mixed with the NyingmaPeyul tradition; so also accept that the Karmapas are the reincarnations of the Martsang teachers?! Accepting some points of one paragraph but rejecting other points of the same paragraph, is that not contradictory to logic and truth ?

If the Chinese elder Chang, Yi-Suen did not even know the origin of the Karmapas, then one will be able to understand that he did not know the history of the Martsang tradition either.

Before Chang, Yi-Suen wrote the Tibetan-Chinese dictionary, not even one text had been seen that mentioned that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other Dharma traditions. Furthermore, there are no historical facts or third-party references to support the claim that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other religious traditions and that the reincarnations of the Martsang tradition are the Karmapas? This is clearly just an opinion and not based on reference or fact. Therefore, if one investigates critically, one’s doubts will automatically get cleared away.

2. RangoTulku mentioned in the text MartsangDenrab1 that Lama KatokTashiGyatso in particular wrote an explanatory text on Trekchoe2in which he emphasized the MartsangMahamudra, and mentioned that the text ‘ChagdzoYerme’ contains a combination of ‘GongpaZangtal’3and ‘Thoegal’4. He goes on to say that, according to JamgoenKongtrul Rinpoche’s ‘Treasury Of Instructions’, there is no other Martsang teaching lineage other than the‘ChagdzoYerme’ which contains a combination of ‘GongpaZangtal’5 and ‘Thoegal’, contained in the Peyul tradition.

This paragraph by RangoTulku, that is mentioned above, is the only so-called ‘proof’ that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other religious traditions. But in it, there is no mention of even one word that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other religious traditions.

We have researched whether a text written by TashiGyatso such as this existed or not, and for that purpose examined three different sections of Kongtrul’s text - ‘Treasury Of Instructions’- which was available in Tibet in 2012 and 2013, and thus far determined that such a text did not exist

More evidences are translating from Tibetan to English at the moment, we will update more information once the translation context is ready.


1. text on the history of the succession of abbots of the Martsang tradition
2. Early translation for Vipashyana; together with ‘Thoegal’, it forms the essential part of Dzogchenin the Nyingma tradition
3. lit ‘unimpeded realization’
4. ‘Thoegal’ is also referred to as The Great Completeness in the Dzogchenpracticeof the Nyingma tradition
5 lit. ‘unimpeded realization’


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