Stabilising Dzogchen practice

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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:18 pm

Pema,

Only how one/all is percieved by own being, is what counts.

I don't know 'Sönam'. When I see mistakenly ones by duality or there is all compassion (in no discrimination); up to my own perception only.

As Longchenpa said: "all experiences and appearances 'arise' in the mind but it is neither mind nor anything other than mind"; then own perception how all is only is the key and no question can add any clarity.
Last edited by muni on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Mariusz » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:24 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Muni, we all clearly have great faith in the truth of these quotes about our true nature. The question begging to be answered by you and Sonam is what does this truth have to do with your actual living experience? On the level of experience, are these not merely words flowing from your discursive consciousness, through your fingertips, and onto this page? Or are these words in fact streaming from the uncontrived space of your own primordial wisdom?


There is a danger of a "colossal waste" because of be not fully guided by realized master but prefer to study of only theoretical teachings, whatever quotes of Dzogchen or other:

For example the Ninth Karmapa, Wangchuk Dorje, wrote in commentary on Chandrakīrti's the Entrance to the Middle Way (feast for the fortunate, page 146) :

This way of interdependence and emptiness should not be taught to
unworthy students, because even if they listen to such teachings their
minds will engage them incorrectly—only a colossal waste will result. To
give some examples of incorrectly engaging these teachings, we can first
turn to some misguided Dzogchenpas. They hold the meaning of emptiness
as nonexistence, thus denying all things. There was also Shar Tsongkapa,
who maintained that emptiness exists and that therefore so does the
nature of things, the supports for emptiness. Then there were the Jonangpas
and Shākya Chokden, who said that emptiness is truly existent, and
that everything other than the ultimate, i.e., all relative phenomena, is
nonexistent. These scholars, among others, are like patients whose doctors
have given up on them. They hold views that the scriptures teach to
be incurable.


So that kind of people will be even "incurable"
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:35 pm

Mariusz text: "They hold the meaning of emptiness
as nonexistence, thus denying all things." Nondual perception is not like no perception at all.


Student: When is there discussion about Dzogchen?
Master: When it is not understood.

We only share words here, that is all.

Whe need a qualified master if not there is no DZOGCHEN at all.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Mariusz » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:12 pm

muni wrote:Student: When is there discussion about Dzogchen?
Master: When it is not understood.

We only share words here, that is all.

Whe need a qualified master if not there is no DZOGCHEN at all.


yes, here is good to learn the valid cognition, to be far way from going to be nihilist or realist. I recommend to study Mipham Rinpoche which Madhyamaka includes some theory of Dzogchen... But need of practice the sooner the better, because theory of Dzogchen only when not from master's personal guideness, could be even obsctacle for later practice, not to mention reading about "visions of Thogal" :alien:
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Paul » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:12 pm

I'm genuinely not sure what's being argued about in this thread. Might be those numerous angels on the head of a pin again.

Image

In the vein of the thread's title, I really, really want to recommend the book "Treasures from Juniper Ridge" which is translated by Erik Pema Kunsang for anyone practising Dzogchen. Rather than being another book expounding Dzogchen's view or the methods of initially recognising the natural state, this comprises many little terma texts in the form of dialogues between Yeshe Tsogyal and Padmasambhava about meditation experiences and how to progress. There are signs to look for and things to avoid. Having a literal list of ways insight can show itself and increase over time is incredibly useful on a very practical level, as are the ways to dig yourself out of a hole caused by clinging.

A warning - this is actually very explicit stuff in retrospect, so reading it without having had transmission could be problematic as it would be easy to form a mental picture from the similes and explanations and call it 'the natural state' when it's just a fantasy.

Here's a link to a lot of the text on Google Books: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lLB2 ... &q&f=false
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby gnegirl » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:25 pm

Oooo.... wonder if there's a kindle version....
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Paul » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:37 pm

gnegirl wrote:Oooo.... wonder if there's a kindle version....


Doesn't look like it.
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby gnegirl » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:14 pm

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Pero » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:46 pm

Hayagriva wrote:In the vein of the thread's title, I really, really want to recommend the book "Treasures from Juniper Ridge" which is translated by Erik Pema Kunsang for anyone practising Dzogchen.


Thanks for the reccomendation, I ordered this book (and two others) yesterday. Pretty hasty of me I suppose he he, normally it takes quite a long time for me to decide which books to get when I have some money.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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