Stabilising Dzogchen practice

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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Mariusz » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:30 pm

gnegirl wrote:I am very curious what qualities you would expect in a 'realized master of dzogpa chenpo'?


see in "Completion of the path of Tögal" when I wrote about checking oneself the lineage and also what other well known respected masters of Dzogchen said about Him/Her if really genuine master and the holder of the lineage...
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby gnegirl » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:40 pm

Mariusz wrote:
gnegirl wrote:I am very curious what qualities you would expect in a 'realized master of dzogpa chenpo'?


see in "Completion of the path of Tögal" when I wrote about checking oneself the lineage and also what other well known respected masters of Dzogchen said about Him/Her if really genuine master and the holder of the lineage...


Im perhaps a bit lazy. Paraphrase please...
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Heruka » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:25 am

gnegirl wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
gnegirl wrote:I am very curious what qualities you would expect in a 'realized master of dzogpa chenpo'?


see in "Completion of the path of Tögal" when I wrote about checking oneself the lineage and also what other well known respected masters of Dzogchen said about Him/Her if really genuine master and the holder of the lineage...


Im perhaps a bit lazy. Paraphrase please...



to point out ones nature of mind, and help ripen if needed. To stabilize and continue in that authentic state, not only in practice time, but outside of formal practice time.

but one needs the pointing out introduction from a master, without that, there is no dzogchen no matter how we may wish it to be otherwise.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby gnegirl » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:39 pm

Heruka wrote:<snip>
to point out ones nature of mind, and help ripen if needed. To stabilize and continue in that authentic state, not only in practice time, but outside of formal practice time.

but one needs the pointing out introduction from a master, without that, there is no dzogchen no matter how we may wish it to be otherwise.


And if i may add to this....

One who has realized emptiness and knows the ins and outs of all the teachings to facilitate this process. Someone who has boundless compassion and wisdom, whom one can follow as the embodiment of Guru Rinpoche himself until the point where his mind and one's own mind are revealed for what they truly are.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:34 pm

I've noticed all what has been said ... then I found "by chance" this text. It was so in the tune of the exchange that I did'nt want to miss publishing it ... everything is perfect, everywhere, all the time, and so on. And of course I agree with one needs the pointing out introduction from a master
Thank you all
Sönam


Spontaneous Arrival at the Level of the Great
Assembly of Sacred Letter Wheels

Highly intelligent people understanding the meaning of originally pure and awakened form from the beginning as originally pure and awakened from the beginning reject the regular course of study and practice because effective conditionning of the mind in the way of the buddhas is a long and slow process. Common minds listening to the secret teaching, regardless of how they interpret its substance, cannot reach true and profound confidence. Ordinary devotional minds with weak comprehension fail to perceive the true and profound in the teaching, and after experiencing delusory phenomena in their meditation, they believe that other practitioners have experiences similar to their own. They then curse others as liars, reviling superior beings. Adopting disputatious attitudes they insist upon a more secret vehicle to obtain the ultimate secret. Since there are so many obstacles to spontaneous recognition, until the intellect has evolved to intuitively understand the meaning of pure and awakened from the beginning as pure and awakened from the beginning, the preceptor should exhaustively teach the student the defects of samsara, the qualities of nirvana, and skill in the techniques of every lower approach to buddhahood, even though the disciple's eventual goal is to go beyond the lower methods. The preceptor should not initiate the many students who fail in this preliminary work and prove unworthy.

- Padmasambhava - Secret instruction in a garland of vision -


Oh but maybe that has not been written in the sens it has been written ?
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby gnegirl » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:43 pm

Is anything *ever* by *chance*?

May all beings awaken to the great way beyond samsara and nirvana!
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Sönam » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:54 pm

gnegirl wrote:Is anything *ever* by *chance*?


mmmhh interesting ! Image

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby heart » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:28 pm

Sönam wrote:I've noticed all what has been said ... then I found "by chance" this text. It was so in the tune of the exchange that I did'nt want to miss publishing it ... everything is perfect, everywhere, all the time, and so on. And of course I agree with one needs the pointing out introduction from a master
Thank you all
Sönam


Spontaneous Arrival at the Level of the Great
Assembly of Sacred Letter Wheels

Highly intelligent people understanding the meaning of originally pure and awakened form from the beginning as originally pure and awakened from the beginning reject the regular course of study and practice because effective conditionning of the mind in the way of the buddhas is a long and slow process. Common minds listening to the secret teaching, regardless of how they interpret its substance, cannot reach true and profound confidence. Ordinary devotional minds with weak comprehension fail to perceive the true and profound in the teaching, and after experiencing delusory phenomena in their meditation, they believe that other practitioners have experiences similar to their own. They then curse others as liars, reviling superior beings. Adopting disputatious attitudes they insist upon a more secret vehicle to obtain the ultimate secret. Since there are so many obstacles to spontaneous recognition, until the intellect has evolved to intuitively understand the meaning of pure and awakened from the beginning as pure and awakened from the beginning, the preceptor should exhaustively teach the student the defects of samsara, the qualities of nirvana, and skill in the techniques of every lower approach to buddhahood, even though the disciple's eventual goal is to go beyond the lower methods. The preceptor should not initiate the many students who fail in this preliminary work and prove unworthy.

- Padmasambhava - Secret instruction in a garland of vision -


Oh but maybe that has not been written in the sens it has been written ?


No, it is all true. If you attain realization simultaneous with the direct introduction then what point is studying, contemplating and practicing? What point is accumulating merit and wisdom? But recognizing the natural state is not realization it is just the beginning of the path of Dzogchen.

So, did you attain realization Sönam?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:03 pm

"We should only ponder the good qualities/sides of others". Padmasambhava.

"if you become boastful and haughty, conceitedly thinking, "I" have special qualities. "I" have realized," it shows that you have not realized". Padmasambhava.
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby gnegirl » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:16 pm

:popcorn:
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby tamdrin » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:22 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:I've noticed all what has been said ... then I found "by chance" this text. It was so in the tune of the exchange that I did'nt want to miss publishing it ... everything is perfect, everywhere, all the time, and so on. And of course I agree with one needs the pointing out introduction from a master
Thank you all
Sönam


Spontaneous Arrival at the Level of the Great
Assembly of Sacred Letter Wheels

Highly intelligent people understanding the meaning of originally pure and awakened form from the beginning as originally pure and awakened from the beginning reject the regular course of study and practice because effective conditionning of the mind in the way of the buddhas is a long and slow process. Common minds listening to the secret teaching, regardless of how they interpret its substance, cannot reach true and profound confidence. Ordinary devotional minds with weak comprehension fail to perceive the true and profound in the teaching, and after experiencing delusory phenomena in their meditation, they believe that other practitioners have experiences similar to their own. They then curse others as liars, reviling superior beings. Adopting disputatious attitudes they insist upon a more secret vehicle to obtain the ultimate secret. Since there are so many obstacles to spontaneous recognition, until the intellect has evolved to intuitively understand the meaning of pure and awakened from the beginning as pure and awakened from the beginning, the preceptor should exhaustively teach the student the defects of samsara, the qualities of nirvana, and skill in the techniques of every lower approach to buddhahood, even though the disciple's eventual goal is to go beyond the lower methods. The preceptor should not initiate the many students who fail in this preliminary work and prove unworthy.

- Padmasambhava - Secret instruction in a garland of vision -


Oh but maybe that has not been written in the sens it has been written ?


No, it is all true. If you attain realization simultaneous with the direct introduction then what point is studying, contemplating and practicing? What point is accumulating merit and wisdom? But recognizing the natural state is not realization it is just the beginning of the path of Dzogchen.

So, did you attain realization Sönam?

/magnus


Even if you did attain realization, what else would there be to do besides study/contemplate and mediate? Just sit there like a log?
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby tamdrin » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:23 pm

Although i am not sure exactly what that quote is saying..
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:34 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Even if you did attain realization, what else would there be to do besides study/contemplate and mediate? Just sit there like a log?


Tamdrin, I think you misunderstand. What's being spoken of is complete realization of the clear light Great Perfection that occurs simultaneous with the pointing out. This is of course said by the tantras and masters to be profoundly rare, but in the case of those for whom this does happen, then buddhahood has been obtained and the spontaneous enlightened activity for the benefit of beings is what ensues. However, for everyone else who does not experience complete realization the moment rigpa is pointed out, what ensues is further study, the accumulation of merit and wisdom - specifically through the "common" Dzogchen ngondro, possibly tsa lung, and then the extraordinary Dzogchen ngondro of khorde rushen and the trainings of the three doors - followed by trekchod and togal.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby tamdrin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:16 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
Even if you did attain realization, what else would there be to do besides study/contemplate and mediate? Just sit there like a log?


Tamdrin, I think you misunderstand. What's being spoken of is complete realization of the clear light Great Perfection that occurs simultaneous with the pointing out. This is of course said by the tantras and masters to be profoundly rare, but in the case of those for whom this does happen, then buddhahood has been obtained and the spontaneous enlightened activity for the benefit of beings is what ensues. However, for everyone else who does not experience complete realization the moment rigpa is pointed out, what ensues is further study, the accumulation of merit and wisdom - specifically through the "common" Dzogchen ngondro, possibly tsa lung, and then the extraordinary Dzogchen ngondro of khorde rushen and the trainings of the three doors - followed by trekchod and togal.


No I understand. Expecting results with out a cause? E MA. In such a case the cause is extensive practice (like full time retreat) in ones previous life... Otherwise people who don't spend at least 15 years in full time practice sleeping only one hour a night shouldnt expect "Complete realization"...
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby heart » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:07 am

tamdrin wrote:Even if you did attain realization, what else would there be to do besides study/contemplate and mediate? Just sit there like a log?


Considering masters such as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Dudjom Rinpoche I think you have point.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby ground » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:31 am

heart wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Even if you did attain realization, what else would there be to do besides study/contemplate and mediate? Just sit there like a log?


Considering masters such as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Dudjom Rinpoche I think you have point.

/magnus


No offence intended. It just has come to my mind when reading your post.

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Kind regards
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:27 am

TMingyur wrote:
heart wrote:
tamdrin wrote:Even if you did attain realization, what else would there be to do besides study/contemplate and mediate? Just sit there like a log?


Considering masters such as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Dudjom Rinpoche I think you have point.

/magnus


No offence intended. It just has come to my mind when reading your post.

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Kind regards


TMingyur, this was excellent advice by the Buddha to his intended audience. However, the level of realization being spoken of in the situation of "realization simultaneous with the pointing out" in Dzogchen is complete Buddhahood. It is not something that happens often at all, and only occurs for individuals who have already spent many, many lifetimes amassing the two accumulations when they have their nature pointed out in this life.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:40 am

tamdrin wrote:
No I understand. Expecting results with out a cause? E MA. In such a case the cause is extensive practice (like full time retreat) in ones previous life... Otherwise people who don't spend at least 15 years in full time practice sleeping only one hour a night shouldnt expect "Complete realization"...


As you can see in my last post, we are on the same page about this. People who think liberation simultaneous with pointing out is something that could happen randomly to just anyone are uninformed. We Westerners sometimes like to think we might just be "special" somehow and that such amazing things could maybe happen to us and then we wouldn't have to do all the hard work lol. Such people hear the Dzogchen teachings on how there's never been any bondage and there's never any liberation, and how there's not a hair's tip worth of effort to be done because there's nothing that needs to be fixed, etc etc, and it brings out this laziness combined with grandiose thinking. They don't seem to realize that many sutras say the same things, yet none suggest anyone might just "get lucky" and get zapped by the right guy at the right spontaneous time and then presto they're a Buddha. Obviously, it's all a big fantasy.
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby muni » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:51 am

heart wrote:

No, it is all true. If you attain realization simultaneous with the direct introduction then what point is studying, contemplating and practicing? What point is accumulating merit and wisdom? But recognizing the natural state is not realization it is just the beginning of the path of Dzogchen.

So, did you attain realization Sönam?

/magnus



A bird makes no traces in the sky. Objective field-knower= is like the sky.
Longchenpa.
Remaining nature that never arise. Nature is not taint by virtuous nonvirtuous karma. Padmasambhava.

Pure awareness, In openness and contentment I found the Lama in my heart.
When we realize this unending natural mind is the very nature of the Lama,
Then there is no need for attached, grasping, or weeping prayers or artificial complaints,
By simply relaxing in this uncontrived, open, and natural state,
We obtain the blessing of aimless self-liberation of whatever arises. Dudjom Rinpoche.

Contemplation is beyond conceptual. Patrul Rinpoche.

http://vessantara.net/wp-content/upload ... oche-2.pdf




-=*=-
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see.
(Mark Twain)
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Re: Stabilising Dzogchen practice

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:33 pm

muni wrote:
A bird makes no traces in the sky. Objective field-knower= is like the sky.
Longchenpa.
Remaining nature that never arise. Nature is not taint by virtuous nonvirtuous karma. Padmasambhava.

Pure awareness, In openness and contentment I found the Lama in my heart.
When we realize this unending natural mind is the very nature of the Lama,
Then there is no need for attached, grasping, or weeping prayers or artificial complaints,
By simply relaxing in this uncontrived, open, and natural state,
We obtain the blessing of aimless self-liberation of whatever arises. Dudjom Rinpoche.

Contemplation is beyond conceptual. Patrul Rinpoche.


Muni, we all clearly have great faith in the truth of these quotes about our true nature. The question begging to be answered by you and Sonam is what does this truth have to do with your actual living experience? On the level of experience, are these not merely words flowing from your discursive consciousness, through your fingertips, and onto this page? Or are these words in fact streaming from the uncontrived space of your own primordial wisdom?
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