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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:39 am 
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how can one transfer merit...
the idea of transfering merit??



sounds like God's Grace to me...

don't we create our own karma and no one can change it or rid it but ourselves..


but this IS dedicating merit so there is no real transfer of anything except good will towards men and such..

sounds christmasy ...

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:26 pm 
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swampflower wrote:
Dedication of merit may be a form of mind training.
The dedication emphasizes that we are not following the Path for our own sake. The motivation to collect merit is for the benefit of others. If we merely pile up merit without dedication we may just be accumulating a heap of stuff. This will defeat the purpose of cutting away clinging and demonstrates incorrect view.
I'm gonna agree with swampflower and maybe take it one step further and say that dedicating merit reminds us that the ultimate aim of our practice is not merely for us to "progress". But since we do "progress" through practice then the least we can do is make this progress a cause for ALL other sentient beings to progress.

So, for example, when the Buddha reached enlightenment under the bodhi tree his first reaction was: "Well that's it then, but there is no way the others will be able to realise this". But he did end up teaching, and lots of people have reached realisation. I believe that this is possibly the ultimate example of the dediction of merit gained through practice. Using the fruits of the merit he accumulated (Buddhahood) in order to benefit all sentient beings.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:32 pm 
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Rael wrote:
how can one transfer merit...
the idea of transfering merit??



sounds like God's Grace to me...

don't we create our own karma and no one can change it or rid it but ourselves..


but this IS dedicating merit so there is no real transfer of anything except good will towards men and such..

sounds christmasy ...


You don't create karma, but karma may create merit. You can't rid yourself of karma until you cease to act, but you can choose how to act.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
Rael wrote:
how can one transfer merit...
the idea of transfering merit??



sounds like God's Grace to me...

don't we create our own karma and no one can change it or rid it but ourselves..


but this IS dedicating merit so there is no real transfer of anything except good will towards men and such..

sounds christmasy ...


You don't create karma (as an outcome), but karma may create merit. You can't rid yourself of karma until you cease to act, but you can choose how to act.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
You don't create karma, but karma may create merit. You can't rid yourself of karma until you cease to act, but you can choose how to act.


You can rid yourself of the fruition of "old" karma and of the accumulation of "new" karma. This actually is the goal of practice initially and once achieved practice becomes "supramundane" practice. "supramundane" practice still creates merit ... but no karma.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:34 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
You don't create karma, but karma may create merit. You can't rid yourself of karma until you cease to act, but you can choose how to act.


You can rid yourself of the fruition of "old" karma and of the accumulation of "new" karma. This actually is the goal of practice initially and once achieved practice becomes "supramundane" practice. "supramundane" practice still creates merit ... but no karma.

kind regards


I agree with this mostly. Supramundance practice is still an action and therefore karma.

We humans are incredibly fortunate, as you write, in being able to recognise such a goal.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:59 am 
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Yeshe wrote:
Supramundance practice is still an action and therefore karma.


This is just the appearance caused by the "speaking about" but actually in supramundane practice action has ceased.


Kind regards

Edit:
This is my conclusion based on the Diamond sutra and the teachings that differentiate between supramundane paramitas and mundane paramitas.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Dedication of merit is the intention of giving the good results coming from a good act one has done. Transference of merit occurs if others learn about one's good deeds and rejoice over it.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
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"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:30 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Transference of merit occurs if others learn about one's good deeds and rejoice over it.


:twothumbsup:

Kind regards


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:52 pm 
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I still think you can't transfer merit...or actually dedicate it....

it's all just a method to produce Bodhicitta in one's mind stream.....

if a transfer money to me Ma via her bank account....she gets to actually use that money...

you can't give merit....

thats the the whole grace of god thing......

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:12 pm 
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Rael,

Merit is not transferred as money. Karma (individual causality) cannot be given or taken. Merit transference means that if you give food to a homeless and you tell me about it and I feel good about such an act agreeing with it because of my mental attitude I experience similar causes as if I gave food myself. Same happens with wrong deeds, that's how "group karma" is possible.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:32 pm 
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TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
Supramundance practice is still an action and therefore karma.


This is just the appearance caused by the "speaking about" but actually in supramundane practice action has ceased.


Kind regards

Edit:
This is my conclusion based on the Diamond sutra and the teachings that differentiate between supramundane paramitas and mundane paramitas.


Even Shakyamuni, fully awakened, as a Buddha, conducted action which had consequences - or we would not be discussing it. Are you saying Shakyamuni, a Buddha, did not act, or that he lacked attainment?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:12 am 
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Yeshe wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
Supramundance practice is still an action and therefore karma.


This is just the appearance caused by the "speaking about" but actually in supramundane practice action has ceased.


Kind regards

Edit:
This is my conclusion based on the Diamond sutra and the teachings that differentiate between supramundane paramitas and mundane paramitas.


Even Shakyamuni, fully awakened, as a Buddha, conducted action which had consequences - or we would not be discussing it. Are you saying Shakyamuni, a Buddha, did not act, or that he lacked attainment?


From our perspective He did act and had attained. And lucky we are that we are able to perceive it that way and rejoice in our perceiving it that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:13 am 
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Yeshe wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Even Shakyamuni, fully awakened, as a Buddha, conducted action which had consequences - or we would not be discussing it. Are you saying Shakyamuni, a Buddha, did not act, or that he lacked attainment?
Yes, but apparently, as a Buddha, his actions were based on his omniscience and thus did not give rise to karma vipakka. After (Mahapari)Nibbana there is no return (according to the Theravadra). There is NOTHING left in the mind stream of a Buddha to give rise to rebirth. Remember that (according to dependent origination) overcoming ignorance is the key that opens the lock of the door which is the exit from samsara. Once omniscient, no ignorance. No ignorance, no birth. No birth, no becoming...
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:46 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Even Shakyamuni, fully awakened, as a Buddha, conducted action which had consequences - or we would not be discussing it. Are you saying Shakyamuni, a Buddha, did not act, or that he lacked attainment?
Yes, but apparently, as a Buddha, his actions were based on his omniscience and thus did not give rise to karma vipakka. After (Mahapari)Nibbana there is no return (according to the Theravadra). There is NOTHING left in the mind stream of a Buddha to give rise to rebirth. Remember that (according to dependent origination) overcoming ignorance is the key that opens the lock of the door which is the exit from samsara. Once omniscient, no ignorance. No ignorance, no birth. No birth, no becoming...
:namaste:



Now (playing Devil's Advocate) how does that sit with a Buddha who, after enlightenment, was still subject to illness, ageing and death? Surely he was only free of samsara and free from karma and rebirth once his body had died?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
Now (playing Devil's Advocate) how does that sit with a Buddha who, after enlightenment, was still subject to illness, ageing and death? Surely he was only free of samsara and free from karma and rebirth once his body had died?
Firstly: what do you mean by "free of karma"? (Apparently) his illness, ageing and death were the ripening of previous karma and not the consequence of his karma (actions) after his enlightenment. After his enlightenment his actions did not bear any effect on his mindstream that could then generate the causes and conditions for a subsequent rebirth.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:21 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
Now (playing Devil's Advocate) how does that sit with a Buddha who, after enlightenment, was still subject to illness, ageing and death? Surely he was only free of samsara and free from karma and rebirth once his body had died?
Firstly: what do you mean by "free of karma"? (Apparently) his illness, ageing and death were the ripening of previous karma and not the consequence of his karma (actions) after his enlightenment. After his enlightenment his actions did not bear any effect on his mindstream that could then generate the causes and conditions for a subsequent rebirth.
:namaste:


I meant free from the consequences of karma as defined in your previous post.

But previous karma could surely not be involved in his deliberate choice to eat poisoned meat? And then become ill and die?

Maybe the karma ripened in creating the situation, but not in his decision how to act.

It's a unique situation in that we can ascribe all these qualities easily to the many Buddhas who are no longer in the human realm, but when it comes to Shakyamuni, did he enter Mahaparinirvana on his awakening or at his death?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:11 pm 
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What a marvelous topic :thumbsup:

The question and some of the comments here have me running off to my library. Isn't it strange how we sometimes take portions of our practice for granted, or at least not think things through thoroughly? At least I am guilty of that sometimes. I have been taught how to dedicate the merit, I do it after every practice session, and I can give a quick, glib "answer" to what I am doing - until you scratch the surface.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:20 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Yeshe wrote:
Now (playing Devil's Advocate) how does that sit with a Buddha who, after enlightenment, was still subject to illness, ageing and death? Surely he was only free of samsara and free from karma and rebirth once his body had died?
Firstly: what do you mean by "free of karma"? (Apparently) his illness, ageing and death were the ripening of previous karma and not the consequence of his karma (actions) after his enlightenment. After his enlightenment his actions did not bear any effect on his mindstream that could then generate the causes and conditions for a subsequent rebirth.
:namaste:


Whats this after his enlightenment thing???

when did he attain enlightenment?

Did he not attain this in the infinite past...??

Was not his whole life a three act play so to speak???

In the lotus sutra, i know of no other sutra to refer to ,and again "honestly" i think the lotus sutra is BOGUS..Says he in fact attain Buddhahood a long time ago....

the whole take the universe put it into a sack and with each step as you walk east take one particle out stop and place it on the ground....however long it takes to empty the sac one particle at a time multiply that by an infinite amount of Kalpas( a kalpa being the lenght of time it takes for a nymph to render a huge stone into dust by coming down with a silken scarf and rubbing it across the huge stone once a hundred years....how long it takes to wear it all down is the measurement of one kalpa ) an infite amount of kalpas is still not long enough.....the sutra goes on forever with multiplications to the power 2 or 4 and then you start all over multiplying that by infinities to get when He first attained Buddhaood.....


And it seems The Tulku I learn under said Buddha did not first attain enlightenment under the Bodhi....He said His life was an act so to speak ...Hiswhole life was a teaching....

Soooooo....then the whole poison mushroom to kill Him thing..not unlike Nargajuna who needed someone to kill him...

they don't die they have to be Killed it seems.....

questions questions....i ain't letting it go....ROFL!!!!!

i need these answered clearly.....thats why i is here....

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Astus wrote:
Rael,

Merit is not transferred as money. Karma (individual causality) cannot be given or taken. Merit transference means that if you give food to a homeless and you tell me about it and I feel good about such an act agreeing with it because of my mental attitude I experience similar causes as if I gave food myself. Same happens with wrong deeds, that's how "group karma" is possible.

so it really is just a method to induce bodhicitta in those that really don't get it....or have bodhicitta come naturally due to their level of evolution....

sort of like using mind action karma or right thought to build merit in one self....

baby steps in other words...well maybe not baby steps for it does produce positive action in the practitioner's mind stream...

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