Completion of the path of Tögal

[muni]

I see no way to aply this for granted. An awakenen only can compassionate point to dream, than recognizise display and use it for teaching. To add concepts about is "my" senseless rambling only. thank you for translation.

[Mariusz]

I see no way to aply this for granted. An awakenen only can compassionate point to dream, than recognizise display and use it for teaching. To add concepts about is "my" senseless rambling only. thank you for translation.

This is your speculative offtopic. The topic is if they reached completion of the path of Tögal? All we have now it is ability of investigation and our previous experiences. Use it if we want find the genuine master of Dzogchen and practice according to His/Her instructions. Until we are sentien beings we are deluded and can practice the deluded path. Madhyamaka pointed: concepts are used as sticks touching each other until the fire which completely burning them, the wisdom beyond all concepts, behind all reference points. In Dzogchen of course the teacher is most important and should be checked carfully- the lineage and the basic teachings, before the practice. The path is in "our hands", not an abstract. If not so we all will be already enlightened out of compassion of present masters of dzogchen, not need of practice.

[muni]

Thank you for your teaching.

there is practice.

[Mariusz]

Thank you for your teaching.

there is practice.

Sorry I'm not a teacher of course. I'm trying follow books and other references I've investigated. Thank you also for your teaching. Excuse me if my errors

[Pero]

, it's incredibly arrogant to think we're their equals. Though perhaps years back I might not have thought so either, I now see it's generally pretty stupid to think otherwise.

Doesn't the teaching show us impartiality? Is reality not free of gradation? What sees less perfection? Is it wrong to see the nature of people and not a conceptual clasification? Should we not respect the precious teacher Gautama, all the other compassionate wise ones by trying to understand the teaching of non discriminatory essential nature?

I'm sorry but it's not really clear to me what you want to say.

[Adamantine]

I believe they are/were Chagdud Rinpoche's students or somehow otherwise connected with Chagdud Gompa.

This is interesting because a vajra brother of mine who's principally associated with Chagdud Gompa, and especially Lama Drimed Norbu, once told me a story about some lay yogis & yoginis who were legit togal practitioners living somewhere in rural northern CA on retreat for yrs. I don't know where he got the info, so it's little more than a rumor to me, but he said they were indeed progressing through the visions, under the guidance of an authentic lama (maybe Chagdud Rinpoche himself?), but at a pretty advanced stage they felt they had reached the culmination of the path, while the lama felt they still had a bit further to go and insisted they keep practicing. Supposedly they were adamant that they'd gone the distance and kindly parted ways with the lama. I don't know what was supposed to have happened after that. Now, I don't know how true this rumor/"legend" is, and I have no idea if it is at all related to this couple, but it's interesting nonetheless to consider that there may have been/may be people right in my back yard reaching this level of realization.

I have confirmation that your 'rumor' is accurate, and that it is indeed this same couple. Which explains why they have left any info about teacher and lineage blank. All the great Dzogchen yogis I know almost cry with devotion at the thought of their teachers. So this seems quite odd in contrast. Can you imagine Manjushrimitra disagreeing with Garab Dorje about his own level of realization, and 'breaking up' with him?

[Heruka]

All the great Dzgochen yogis I know

[Adamantine]

All the great Dzgochen yogis I know

Are you trying to say something or?

--making fun of my typo?

[narraboth]

There are descriptions in tantras about how yogis behave at final stage of Togal.
From their website I can't see anything similar.

[Josef]

In the Yeshe Lama Jigme Lingpa is pretty clear about what Togal is and is not.
The Olds's dont reflect what JL teaches in my opinion.

[conebeckham]

Pretty pictures, though, eh???

[tamdrin]

Buddhism is hard to practice. That is why we see so many people deceiving themselves about where they really are on the path. Its wishful thinking...

[Adamantine]

I guess this is their attempt to circumvent the fact that they have no approval from any Tibetan lineage to teach:

The practices of the Heart Essence arose out of direct experience in the wilderness long before they were known as Mahasandhi, Maha Ati, Dzogchen, or The Great Perfection. We want to encourage reconnection with the original roots of this path.

They are claiming contact with the 'original' roots, pre-Buddhism? Like cave-man Thogal style. .

[Josef]

Pretty pictures, though, eh???

At risk of sounding like a snob on multiple levels, I'm not too impressed by their art either.

[Heruka]

In the Yeshe Lama Jigme Lingpa is pretty clear about what Togal is and is not.
The Olds's dont reflect what JL teaches in my opinion.

i think your missing the point, upadesha instructions on togal will not be the same, there is not one bible of togal, just as not all lineages, do the masters achieve rainbow body in one shade or another. there is no swap meet of togal instructions.
there is a general principle behind it, but upadesha is your masters instructions, not general principle learned from a book. very rare for togal to be taught or even discussed. so we can all be certain of our ignorance of togal and continue to rake muck.



one last thing, one can damage the instructions and weaken the lineage, many generations no fruit will be realized. even with great teachers this can happen.

this is very serious stuff.

[Heruka]

Pretty pictures, though, eh???

At risk of sounding like a snob on multiple levels, I'm not too impressed by their art either.

their art reflects their "experience" of longde space series im sure. so ufo was good symbol .

still better to side with caution and say nice things, than bad things. thats just my uneducated opinion.

[Heruka]

They are claiming contact with the 'original' roots, pre-Buddhism? Like cave-man Thogal style. .

dzogchen tantras explain how we degenerated from lumious beings to ugly cave man dwarfs...

[Josef]

In the Yeshe Lama Jigme Lingpa is pretty clear about what Togal is and is not.
The Olds's dont reflect what JL teaches in my opinion.

i think your missing the point, upadesha instructions on togal will not be the same, there is not one bible of togal, just as not all lineages, do the masters achieve rainbow body in one shade or another. there is no swap meet of togal instructions.
there is a general principle behind it, but upadesha is your masters instructions, not general principle learned from a book. very rare for togal to be taught or even discussed. so we can all be certain of our ignorance of togal and continue to rake muck.



one last thing, one can damage the instructions and weaken the lineage, many generations no fruit will be realized. even with great teachers this can happen.

this is very serious stuff.

I understand that Heruka and actually thought about it a bit after posting that. However, their presentation is so strongly divergent that I think my statement maintains its relevance.

[Josef]

Pretty pictures, though, eh???

At risk of sounding like a snob on multiple levels, I'm not too impressed by their art either.

still better to side with caution and say nice things, than bad things. thats just my uneducated opinion.

I'm a critic. One of my many faults.

[Heruka]

I understand that Heruka and actually thought about it a bit after posting that. However, their presentation is so strongly divergent that I think my statement maintains its relevance.

oh of course, absolutley, would take the awesome jigmed lingpas instructions over many many things, but i think these two, are/were practioners, gained some experience and knowledge, and wanted to display/manifest their joy and peace of mind and maybe make some money for food off of that. hey in my world, no problem.
the paintings of tigles i thought were quite good, but art is subjective.