Stabilising Dzogchen practice

[Paul]

I found this series of posts by Jean-Luc Achard on a Bon message board.

The discussion really clarifies the role of retreat in stabilising the recognition of the natural state and also has some interesting points to make about translation, so I thought I'd share it.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vSEiRmMQGiEJ:yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-free.com/presence-rigpa-t126.html+presence+rigpa&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

[Paul]

I made a PDF of the conversation as people may not be able to read it from the site linked to...

[heart]

I read it on the site and I agree with you it is interesting. Jean-Luc is a very serious practitioner and also quite a scholar both in western academic sense as well as in the traditional Tibetan style. He is also a translator. I also do consider him my friend.

/magnus

[Paul]

Scholar/practitioner/translators such as Jean-Luc or Erik are really, really precious.

The way that they can easily correct misperceptions as he does in the link is invaluable.

[Sönam]

Scholar/practitioner/translators such as Jean-Luc or Erik are really, really precious.

The way that they can easily correct misperceptions as he does in the link is invaluable.

could be pondered ... misperceptions come in regard of perceptions, and the strenght (some time "violence") with which he (J-L) explains everywhere, with the exact same arguments, his view (supposedly shared with his own Bön master), maintening it to be the orthodoxy and "words of masters" on the matter supported by the fact that he is certainly a very "creative" translator, does not guarantee the rightness of his perception on the subject, even not that all masters share the very aforementioned same orthodoxy. Unfortunately it's only a point of view, based, like all point of views, on personal experience, and on the personal inability to easily stay in equipoise in meditation (still have to be explained the real sens of that term concerning Dzogchen) and in post-meditation. There is many reason why it was so in Tibet (long term retreats, and so on ...) before.
This dichotomous opinion sounds like the eternal disagreement between moderns and classics, like the "bataille d'Hernani" ...

May all be good
Sönam

[heart]

Scholar/practitioner/translators such as Jean-Luc or Erik are really, really precious.

The way that they can easily correct misperceptions as he does in the link is invaluable.

could be pondered ... misperceptions come in regard of perceptions, and the strenght (some time "violence") with which he (J-L) explains everywhere, with the exact same arguments, his view (supposedly shared with his own Bön master), maintening it to be the orthodoxy and "words of masters" on the matter supported by the fact that he is certainly a very "creative" translator, does not guarantee the rightness of his perception on the subject, even not that all masters share the very aforementioned same orthodoxy. Unfortunately it's only a point of view, based, like all point of views, on personal experience, and on the personal inability to easily stay in equipoise in meditation (still have to be explained the real sens of that term concerning Dzogchen) and in post-meditation. There is many reason why it was so in Tibet (long term retreats, and so on ...) before.
This dichotomous opinion sounds like the eternal disagreement between moderns and classics, like the "bataille d'Hernani" ...

May all be good
Sönam

I don't know Sönam, Jean-Luc is a real practitioner, you should be careful not to disrespect him.

/magnus

[Sönam]

I don't know Sönam, Jean-Luc is a real practitioner, you should be careful not to disrespect him.

/magnus

Hello Magnus,

Not to worry, I don't disrespect him, not in thoughts and not in words, here or in others places where he reads me directly. I'm just strongly questionning ... and I'm very astonished of the strenght used to defend that point of view, with the door closed to any counter-arguments.
But I recognize him as being a great translator, and certainly in french where he brought, with intelligence, a lot of new terms to translate specific Tibetan words.

Sönam

[mutsuk]

Not to worry, I don't disrespect him, not in thoughts and not in words, here or in others places where he reads me directly. I'm just strongly questionning ...

the guy has been patient beyond limit, especially with people who oppose him their opinions, when he has the knowledge of the concerned literature and he’s been trained with authentic masters personally for above 2 decades. You are questioning something he says because you are rigidly convinced of your point of view. This is the problem : you have opinions, he has experience and knowledge. I read what you wrote on the french forum and it’s again the rants of someone who has not properly understood basics about Dzogchen. Your incapacity to penetrate the meaning of the difference between Dzogchen and the Dzogchenpa is a reason why the guy is sometimes very direct cuz he’s totally fed up with this, having to repeat things to deaf ears. Start to study properly and you’ll see he’s right beyond what you can imagine. I was his strongest opponent until I met him and discussed Dzogchen with him and practiced with him. I can tell you the guy knows what he’s talking about...

and I'm very astonished of the strenght used to defend that point of view, with the door closed to any counter-arguments.

The debate on the french forum was closed by the Admin, not by JL. Make true statement and don't manipulate please.

[heart]

I don't know Sönam, Jean-Luc is a real practitioner, you should be careful not to disrespect him.

/magnus

Hello Magnus,

Not to worry, I don't disrespect him, not in thoughts and not in words, here or in others places where he reads me directly. I'm just strongly questionning ... and I'm very astonished of the strenght used to defend that point of view, with the door closed to any counter-arguments.
But I recognize him as being a great translator, and certainly in french where he brought, with intelligence, a lot of new terms to translate specific Tibetan words.

Sönam

My impression of him is that he actually put everything he was taught in to practice in a very traditional way like a true yogi. I understood that his view about Dzogchen practice comes from his many long retreats rather than his academic research. I respect that a lot. You don't like his translations? Well, I don't translate myself so I try to stay out of those discussions. I just don't have the knowledge or the perspective.

/magnus

[Sönam]

It is closed,
no more openning,
certitude did do that,
it is not to be discussed,
you take and bow or leave.
Certainly that's a right track!

This is a true practice,
It's perfect, everything,
everywhere, all times.
It is effortlessness!
Easy, not simple.
Since my live is a tantra,
What does it means meditation ?

I don't bow cause everyone bow
Sönam

[Jnana]

I made a PDF of the conversation as people may not be able to read it from the site linked to...

Very good. Thanks.

All the best,

Geoff

[heart]

It is closed,
no more openning,
certitude did do that,
it is not to be discussed,
you take and bow or leave.
Certainly that's a right track!

This is a true practice,
It's perfect, everything,
everywhere, all times.
It is effortlessness!
Easy, not simple.
Since my live is a tantra,
What does it means meditation ?

I don't bow cause everyone bow
Sönam

It is not easy, because it so simple, meditation is just recognizing this
It is effortless to fall in to the lower realms, meditation is just recognizing this
The knowing of the mind, has no hold on true wisdom, meditation is just recognizing this
To those of follow the path of true wisdom I bow down

/magnus

[Sönam]

In lower vehicles cause gives effect, when conditions.
In Dzogchen cause is effect, with no conditions.
Thus, Dzogchen has never been separated from Dzogchenpa.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Dzogchen has never been separated from Dzogchenpa.

That is so, obviously, but until one realizes it to be so, it's as if it's not so. But since you'll undoubtedly disagree, I'm assuming you no longer practice then?

[muni]

No separation Dzogchen-Dzogchenpa. practice= to "remain" in nondual awareness, no any practioner-practice separation can be. No self-spot taint wholeness, no striving can be. Other Yoga tool may help.
Dzogchen rambling.

[heart]

In lower vehicles cause gives effect, when conditions.
In Dzogchen cause is effect, with no conditions.
Thus, Dzogchen has never been separated from Dzogchenpa.

So you are free from birth, old age, sickness and death? That is cause and effect you know.

/magnus

[Pema Rigdzin]

No separation Dzogchen-Dzogchenpa. practice= to "remain" in nondual awareness, no any practioner-practice separation can be. No self-spot taint wholeness, no striving can be. Other Yoga tool may help.
Dzogchen rambling.

Yes yes, we all get this, but does this mean to you that Kuntuzangpo's Dzogchen teachings are untrue? Namely, that "there is one basis but two paths: rigpa and marigpa"? Is it not as Kuntuzangpo has said, that with marigpa, beings wander through the six realms?

[Mariusz]

In lower vehicles cause gives effect, when conditions.
In Dzogchen cause is effect, with no conditions.
Thus, Dzogchen has never been separated from Dzogchenpa.

Yes and no. The separation (rushen) is the key practice in Dzogchen. Without it there is not practice in Dzogchen. And this is also the result, as i understand the logic, when there is no more any practice.

Animals, Humans, Pretas perceive differently. But there is the Path. Because of this Path, sentient beings by subject side perceive gross Nirmanakaya, bodhisattvas free from clinging perceive subtle Sambhogakaya, buddhas?.... because there is not any division at this level "they" can not continue to perceive but the Dharmakaya. The object of all of these is what? The division is where? Never was at the first place but only seems to. But until it seems to be division is also the Path. This Path leads to the no division. When division between "Buddha" and "sentient being" is completely no more, it means the all qualities (Dharmakaya, Rupakaya). This I meant by sentence: All divisions belong to the seeming not to the buddhas.

[Sönam]

Dzogchen has never been separated from Dzogchenpa.

That is so, obviously, but until one realizes it to be so, it's as if it's not so. But since you'll undoubtedly disagree, I'm assuming you no longer practice then?

it depends what you mean by practicing ... there is still an activity !

[Sönam]

In lower vehicles cause gives effect, when conditions.
In Dzogchen cause is effect, with no conditions.
Thus, Dzogchen has never been separated from Dzogchenpa.

So you are free from birth, old age, sickness and death? That is cause and effect you know.

/magnus

Please read me, I did'nt say there is no cause and effect, I said "cause is effect" ...