Dr. Reginald Ray

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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:05 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I really think you need to put these quotes in their proper context, as I've pointed out before: CTR taught the Vajrayana and Maha Ati within the scope of the entire path, he outlined all 9 yanas in great detail: he was careful to contextualize everything so the Dharma was completely taught and transplanted here- not just part of it.

Alpha-purity -- Trungpa Rinpoche's translation of kadag -- is always prior to any notions of "Buddhism." This is why atiyoga is a complete yāna in and of itself. And alpha-purity cannot be institutionalized, domesticated, boxed and packaged.


You did at one point admit that Ray's use of language was unskillful in that interview. But now you're saying that he is teaching the original pristine Maha Ati in the same interview? I'm just not really getting that from it. There seems to be much more of an influence from western psychology :he refers to trauma almost constantly-- implying that we are all traumatized and we're unraveling our traumas continuously like layers of an onion in the course of practice.. does this sound like revolutionary pristine Dzogchen? It sounds relative to me. I bet if I were to re-listen to the interview I could pick out an excessive number of times that Ray is speaking fully in the relative, it's just a very Western-culturally-conditioned 'relative' that has little to do with the Buddha's teachings on the relative.

Anyway, speaking of lineage-less western friendly pristine teachings, what do you think of Eckhart Tolle Geoff? Do you find him to be the Garab Dorje of our time? He is certainly a marketing genius. A fantastic boxer and packager. Is it possible some Western Dharma teachers are copping his style to tap into that market?
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby tamdrin » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:15 pm

This stupid discussion again... Ok Atiyoga is a view... Mahamudra is also a view... The methods of Atiyoga are its relative practices. There is no "ultimate" practices.. Same as Mahamudra. Saying that Kadak is prior to Buddhism is nothing that the Madhyamakha master Nagarjuna didn't already point out. In fact, there is no such thing as Buddhism..
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Jnana » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:17 pm

Adamantine wrote:You did at one point admit that Ray's use of language was unskillful in that interview.

I think I said that it probably wasn't the most skillful.

Adamantine wrote:But now you're saying that he is teaching the original pristine Maha Ati in the same interview?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm merely trying to provide some context.

Adamantine wrote:There seems to be much more of an influence from western psychology :he refers to trauma almost constantly-- implying that we are all traumatized and we're unraveling our traumas continuously like layers of an onion in the course of practice.. does this sound like revolutionary pristine Dzogchen? It sounds relative to me. I bet if I were to re-listen to the interview I could pick out an excessive number of times that Ray is speaking fully in the relative, it's just a very Western-culturally-conditioned 'relative' that has little to do with the Buddha's teachings on the relative.

Well, the Dharma at various levels works with kleśas, either through renunciation, or transformation, or natural liberation. Jamgön Kongtrül Lodrö Thayé:

    Methods of controlling afflictive emotions can be subsumed into three:
    Rejection, transformation, and recognition.
    Rejecting these emotions is the ordinary approach of the sutras.
    Desire is renounced through contemplation on repulsiveness,
    Hatred through contemplation on love,
    And stupidity through meditation on interdependent relationship.
    The uncommon approach of mantra is to transform afflictive emotions.
    When desire arises, you meditate on Amitabha or a deity such as Heruka in union.
    The desirous thought is transformed into the deity.
    The other deluded emotions are treated in the same way.
    The exceptional approach is to recognize the true nature of afflictive emotions.
    When desirous thoughts arise vividly,
    Looking directly at their essence, they subside in themselves.
    This is the dawning of mahamudra, bliss and emptiness inseparable.
    It is also called the pristine wisdom of discernment.
    There has never been anything to reject, nor to accept,
    Nor to transform; everything is contained within mind.
    Know that there is no other intention of a buddha
    Than simply the uncontrived mind itself.

Adamantine wrote:Anyway, speaking of lineage-less western friendly pristine teachings, what do you think of Eckhart Tolle Geoff? Do you find him to be the Garab Dorje of our time? He is certainly a marketing genius. A fantastic boxer and packager. Is it possible some Western Dharma teachers are copping his style to tap into that market?

I don't know anything about marketing, and very little about Tolle.

All the best,

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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:24 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Anyway, speaking of lineage-less western friendly pristine teachings, what do you think of Eckhart Tolle Geoff? Do you find him to be the Garab Dorje of our time? He is certainly a marketing genius. A fantastic boxer and packager. Is it possible some Western Dharma teachers are copping his style to tap into that market?

I don't know anything about marketing, and very little about Tolle.

All the best,

Geoff



Well, I know you are highly concerned about context re: Ray's interviews, so let's not forget he did a whole slew of interviews at the same time, (the two at issue included) while on a teaching tour, all in order to promote sales of his new book "Touching Enlightenment". So perhaps marketing itself is the most important context to consider.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Jnana » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:30 pm

Adamantine wrote:Well, I know you are highly concerned about context re: Ray's interviews, so let's not forget he did a whole slew of interviews at the same time, (the two at issue included) while on a teaching tour, all in order to promote sales of his new book "Touching Enlightenment". So perhaps marketing itself is the most important context to consider.

Not "highly concerned," merely interested would be more accurate. At any rate, Ray is teaching ngöndro, as well as creation stage and completion stage practices. So there is really no comparison to Tolle.

All the best,

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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:21 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Well, I know you are highly concerned about context re: Ray's interviews, so let's not forget he did a whole slew of interviews at the same time, (the two at issue included) while on a teaching tour, all in order to promote sales of his new book "Touching Enlightenment". So perhaps marketing itself is the most important context to consider.

Not "highly concerned," merely interested would be more accurate. At any rate, Ray is teaching ngöndro, as well as creation stage and completion stage practices. So there is really no comparison to Tolle.

All the best,

Geoff


But since we know he's teaching ngondro, creation, and completion, implying he is teaching pristine dzogchen
becomes nonsensical. How can he be teaching these Vajrayana
levels without the context of transmigration, karma, and bardo teachings? Ngondro, creation and completion practices don't function without that context. That's what I've been trying to point out all along.
Ray's inconsistencies seem erratic, not skillful.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Jnana » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:09 am

Adamantine wrote:But since we know he's teaching ngondro, creation, and completion, implying he is teaching pristine dzogchen becomes nonsensical.

This inference was neither stated nor implied.

Adamantine wrote:How can he be teaching these Vajrayana levels without the context of transmigration, karma, and bardo teachings? Ngondro, creation and completion practices don't function without that context. That's what I've been trying to point out all along. Ray's inconsistencies seem erratic, not skillful.

Why would Ray not teach his students the contents of his well regarded publications?

Indestructible Truth: The Living Spirituality of Tibetan Buddhism by Reginald A. Ray.

Secret of the Vajra World: The Tantric Buddhism of Tibet by Reginald A. Ray.

In the Presence of Masters: Wisdom from 30 Contemporary Tibetan Buddhist Teachers by Reginald A. Ray.

Buddhist Saints in India: A Study in Buddhist Values and Orientations by Reginald A. Ray.

Touching Enlightenment: Finding Realization in the Body by Reginald A. Ray.

Meditating with the Body: Six Tibetan Buddhist Meditations for Touching Enlightenment with the Body by Reginald A. Ray.

Your Breathing Body Vol. 1 by Reginald A. Ray.

Your Breathing Body Vol. 2 by Reginald A. Ray.

Entering the Path: An Introduction to Buddhist Teachings by Reginald A. Ray.

Introduction to Tonglen: The Practice of Extending Love to Others by Reginald A. Ray.

Seems to be a pretty comprehensive collection of Dharma teachings. Plus, he undoubtedly encourages his students to study the vast corpus of Trungpa Rinpoche's published works.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:28 am

Why would Ray not teach his students the contents of his well regarded publications?


I have no idea Geoff, that is indeed the question at hand. it seems like something shifted dramatically in just a few short years. Perhaps it has something to do with his resorting to outside 'shamanic' traditions and presumably the powerful
drugs which they employ. But there is certainly a large contradiction between many things he's saying in absolutes in these recent interviews and much of his earlier work.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:30 am

Adamantine wrote:I have no idea Geoff, that is indeed the question at hand. it seems like something shifted dramatically in just a few short years. .



Similiar to the phenomenon we saw with Michael Roach for example, this appears to be a common trend amongst westernBuddhist Teachers.
Last edited by tamdrin on Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:17 am

tamdrin wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I have no idea Geoff, that is indeed the question at hand. it seems like something shifted dramatically in just a few short years. Perhaps it has something to do with his resorting to outside 'shamanic' traditions and presumably the powerful
drugs which they employ. But there is certainly a large contradiction between many things he's saying in absolutes in these recent interviews and much of his earlier work.



Similiar to the phenomenon we saw with Michael Roach for example, this appears to be a common trend amongst westernBuddhist Teachers.


Folks, this is starting to get out of hand.

Now we're flirting with the idea that Reggie Ray is using drugs? That's bordering on complete irresponsibility. We may be looking at "presumably" right now, but such things have a way of transforming into certainties.

The truth is, that none of knows enough about what Reggie Ray is up to and why he's doing it. All we have is purest speculation and in reality, it doesn't mean squat. I think it would be best if the thread is closed. If I was counsel for this board's owners I'd be starting to worry about law suits.

I'd like to place a formal request to have this topic closed and removed. I suspect the Mod(s) will not look favorably on this, so I'd like to go around the mods and go straight to admins or the owner. Who do I talk to?
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:43 am

Chaz wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I have no idea Geoff, that is indeed the question at hand. it seems like something shifted dramatically in just a few short years. Perhaps it has something to do with his resorting to outside 'shamanic' traditions and presumably the powerful
drugs which they employ. But there is certainly a large contradiction between many things he's saying in absolutes in these recent interviews and much of his earlier work.



Similiar to the phenomenon we saw with Michael Roach for example, this appears to be a common trend amongst westernBuddhist Teachers.


Folks, this is starting to get out of hand.

Now we're flirting with the idea that Reggie Ray is using drugs? That's bordering on complete irresponsibility. We may be looking at "presumably" right now, but such things have a way of transforming into certainties.

The truth is, that none of knows enough about what Reggie Ray is up to and why he's doing it. All we have is purest speculation and in reality, it doesn't mean squat. I think it would be best if the thread is closed. If I was counsel for this board's owners I'd be starting to worry about law suits.

I'd like to place a formal request to have this topic closed and removed. I suspect the Mod(s) will not look favorably on this, so I'd like to go around the mods and go straight to admins or the owner. Who do I talk to?


I'm happy to personally remove that statement if it can be explained to me why it is as highly problematic as you seem to feel it is. I only mentioned it because of all the people I know, which is actually quite a few, who have been mixing their spirituality with shamanic techniques in the last 10 years in the U.S., some of which are Native but most of whom are of European descent- all of them at some point or other resort to the use of Peyote, Ayahuasca or it's sister plant. For instance, another serious student of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, Llyn Roberts, now almost exclusively teaches Shamanism in tandem with John Perkins.. and they do incorporate these plants in their ceremonies. Is it really scandalous to presume that since he is now presenting shamanic rituals inspired by North or South American cultures as part of his teaching repertoire, that he may be incorporating one of the most sacred sacraments of these cultures?
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby tamdrin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:55 am

Chaz wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I have no idea Geoff, that is indeed the question at hand. it seems like something shifted dramatically in just a few short years. Perhaps it has something to do with his resorting to outside 'shamanic' traditions and presumably the powerful
drugs which they employ. But there is certainly a large contradiction between many things he's saying in absolutes in these recent interviews and much of his earlier work.



Similiar to the phenomenon we saw with Michael Roach for example, this appears to be a common trend amongst westernBuddhist Teachers.


Folks, this is starting to get out of hand.

Now we're flirting with the idea that Reggie Ray is using drugs? That's bordering on complete irresponsibility. We may be looking at "presumably" right now, but such things have a way of transforming into certainties.

The truth is, that none of knows enough about what Reggie Ray is up to and why he's doing it. All we have is purest speculation and in reality, it doesn't mean squat. I think it would be best if the thread is closed. If I was counsel for this board's owners I'd be starting to worry about law suits.

I'd like to place a formal request to have this topic closed and removed. I suspect the Mod(s) will not look favorably on this, so I'd like to go around the mods and go straight to admins or the owner. Who do I talk to?



I think you are taking this way too seriously...PS CHaz I edited the portion of the quote I was referring to in my last post
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:14 am

Chaz wrote:The truth is, that none of knows enough about what Reggie Ray is up to and why he's doing it. All we have is purest speculation and in reality, it doesn't mean squat. I think it would be best if the thread is closed. If I was counsel for this board's owners I'd be starting to worry about law suits.


We know he went on a teaching tour and gave a lot of interviews to promote his book, and in so doing said that he didn't think rebirth as a literal teaching in Buddhism was useful, and as such, should be discarded. He also argued against there being a total awakening, an omniscient 'enlightenment' such as the Nirmanakaya Buddha of our age displayed. Additionally he reduces the removal of obscuration through the process of meditative techniques to processing a series of psychological traumas-- a rather strange reduction in my estimation. There are a whole series of absolute statements he makes throughout the course of these interviews. The link that I posted was to an interview conducted by a close and longtime student of his, and she presented it as her opportunity to ask him the really tough questions that skeptical strangers as well as students of his wanted to ask. So unless they are deceiving us, then this was also the framework of a direct teaching –and clarification– from him to his own students. There is not a lot of room to wonder if he really meant what he was saying in that context. So I don't think anything we're really discussing is speculative for the most part, with the exception of things such as the shamanic plant element that have already been qualified as speculative. These interviews were made for the public, are distributed via the web publicly, and as such are in the public domain to be discussed with total freedom. I am not sure why you are so concerned about consequences in this regard.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:16 am

Adamantine wrote:I'm happy to personally remove that statement if it can be explained to me why it is as highly problematic as you seem to feel it is. I only mentioned it because of all the people I know, which is actually quite a few, who have been mixing their spirituality with shamanic techniques in the last 10 years in the U.S., some of which are Native but most of whom are of European descent- all of them at some point or other resort to the use of Peyote, Ayahuasca or it's sister plant. For instance, another serious student of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, Llyn Roberts, now almost exclusively teaches Shamanism in tandem with John Perkins.. and they do incorporate these plants in their ceremonies. Is it really scandalous to presume that since he is now presenting shamanic rituals inspired by North or South American cultures as part of his teaching repertoire, that he may be incorporating one of the most sacred sacraments of these cultures?



Adam,

the thing is that just because you know some people who mix peyote in their practice does not necessarly mean that Reggie ray is doing so. It doesn't matter what Lynn Robersts is doing.

Hell, I smoke pot. Does that mean my guru is a stoner, too?

An old student of both Reggie and CTR is now the assistant pastor of a Jodo Shinsu temple a couple blocks from my office. That doesn't mean that Reggie or CTR had anything to do with that kind of Pure Land practice.

Although you have covered yourself with the term "presumably", it won't be much of a reach for people to read that and start thinking that Reggie's doing peyote and jimsom weed regardless of what you said. There is nothing scandalous about speculating about Ray's practice, but it can and will probably morph into some certainty that he's doing those things. Then you start talking about a defamation of character suit, because it is being framed as a negative. If I was Reggies lawyer (and be very certain that he has one or two), and knew about this thread, I'd be watching it very closely for a "make my day" post. All it takes is one post that is completely out of line and bang - kiss this board good by. Reggies lawyers will have our host sitting up and barking like a dog inside of 24 hours. You want to risk that? If I was the owner of this board the thread would be shut down already.

Reggie's people are already aware of this thread's presence. Gordo reportedly sent Reggie an email asking for clarification on this thread. It's not unreasonable to believe that while Ray may be unaware, his people are not, and could be watching this thread to see where it goes. Hell, if you do the right search on a string including "reggie ray" you'll find a link right to this thread.

It's time this thread ended cause someone's gonna get their ass in a deep sling.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Chaz » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:27 am

Adamantine wrote:
Chaz wrote:The truth is, that none of knows enough about what Reggie Ray is up to and why he's doing it. All we have is purest speculation and in reality, it doesn't mean squat. I think it would be best if the thread is closed. If I was counsel for this board's owners I'd be starting to worry about law suits.


We know he went on a teaching tour and gave a lot of interviews to promote his book, and in so doing said that he didn't think rebirth as a literal teaching in Buddhism was useful, and as such, should be discarded. He also argued against there being a total awakening, an omniscient 'enlightenment' such as the Nirmanakaya Buddha of our age displayed. Additionally he reduces the removal of obscuration through the process of meditative techniques to processing a series of psychological traumas-- a rather strange reduction in my estimation. There are a whole series of absolute statements he makes throughout the course of these interviews. The link that I posted was to an interview conducted by a close and longtime student of his, and she presented it as her opportunity to ask him the really tough questions that skeptical strangers as well as students of his wanted to ask. So unless they are deceiving us, then this was also the framework of a direct teaching –and clarification– from him to his own students. There is not a lot of room to wonder if he really meant what he was saying in that context. So I don't think anything we're really discussing is speculative for the most part, with the exception of things such as the shamanic plant element that have already been qualified as speculative. These interviews were made for the public, are distributed via the web publicly, and as such are in the pubic domain to be discussed with total freedom. I am not sure why you are so concerned about consequences in this regard.


It's important because while up til now the thread was within the bounds of fair comment, when you start suggesting that a teacher of Reggies stature (like him or not), might be involved in the illegal use of controlled substances, like those used in shamanistic ritual, it doesn't take much for that suggestion to become a statement of fact. Somebody on this board says that Reggie's doing peyote and his attorney says "no he isn't" and you've got a defamation suit on your hands and even if it's frivolous, the costs just to answer that complaint will crush this site and it's owners. Scientology and and other religious groups have used similar tactics for years with far less justification to effectively silence critics. I wouldn't put it past a Buddhist group to do the same thing, especially if there's a case.

Nothing will happen to me, and nothing will happen to you. Ultimately, the owner of the site would be the one held responsible.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:34 am

Chaz wrote:
Adamantine wrote:I'm happy to personally remove that statement if it can be explained to me why it is as highly problematic as you seem to feel it is. I only mentioned it because of all the people I know, which is actually quite a few, who have been mixing their spirituality with shamanic techniques in the last 10 years in the U.S., some of which are Native but most of whom are of European descent- all of them at some point or other resort to the use of Peyote, Ayahuasca or it's sister plant. For instance, another serious student of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, Llyn Roberts, now almost exclusively teaches Shamanism in tandem with John Perkins.. and they do incorporate these plants in their ceremonies. Is it really scandalous to presume that since he is now presenting shamanic rituals inspired by North or South American cultures as part of his teaching repertoire, that he may be incorporating one of the most sacred sacraments of these cultures?



Adam,

the thing is that just because you know some people who mix peyote in their practice does not necessarly mean that Reggie ray is doing so. It doesn't matter what Lynn Robersts is doing.

Hell, I smoke pot. Does that mean my guru is a stoner, too?

An old student of both Reggie and CTR is now the assistant pastor of a Jodo Shinsu temple a couple blocks from my office. That doesn't mean that Reggie or CTR had anything to do with that kind of Pure Land practice.

Although you have covered yourself with the term "presumably", it won't be much of a reach for people to read that and start thinking that Reggie's doing peyote and jimsom weed regardless of what you said. There is nothing scandalous about speculating about Ray's practice, but it can and will probably morph into some certainty that he's doing those things. Then you start talking about a defamation of character suit, because it is being framed as a negative. If I was Reggies lawyer (and be very certain that he has one or two), and knew about this thread, I'd be watching it very closely for a "make my day" post. All it takes is one post that is completely out of line and bang - kiss this board good by. Reggies lawyers will have our host sitting up and barking like a dog inside of 24 hours. You want to risk that? If I was the owner of this board the thread would be shut down already.

Reggie's people are already aware of this thread's presence. Gordo reportedly sent Reggie an email asking for clarification on this thread. It's not unreasonable to believe that while Ray may be unaware, his people are not, and could be watching this thread to see where it goes. Hell, if you do the right search on a string including "reggie ray" you'll find a link right to this thread.

It's time this thread ended cause someone's gonna get their ass in a deep sling.


Relax my friend. Just to further qualify my 'presumably', there is a precedence for the use of certain special plants in Vajrayana apparently: for instance, in Ian Baker's book 'The Heart of the World' about the hidden pure land in India named Pema Ko, where HH Dudjom Rinpoche was born, there is a reference to a miraculous plant prophesied in a terma of Guru Rinpoche. It tells us the humans, animals or insects that consume it will reach Buddhahood, and be able to perform miracles. I am not trying to conflate this with psychedelic plants from the Americas, for Pema Ko really is understood to be a beyond-ordinary place where even the karma to arrive there is incredibly rare. And some scholars may conflate the two. Just bringing up the possibility that he may be interested in such things or engaged in them is not a liability, especially considering he openly uses the term "shamanic" to describe states he is going into where he has visions of his teacher Trungpa Rinpoche, etc. He is intentionally using the word shamanic, knowing it's connotations. For any of us to pick up on those connotations, and discuss them, can not be an type of defamation. I am sure that if anyone starts hurling absolute condemnations or accusations of these things the mods will take quick action.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:40 am

It is well known that one of the most universal practices shamans use to contact the spirit world is the use of entheogens. For example an excerpt from the Wiki article on Shamanism


Practice

Generally, the shaman traverses the axis mundi and enters the spirit world by effecting a transition of consciousness, entering into an ecstatic trance, either autohypnotically or through the use of entheogens. The methods employed are diverse, and are often used together. Some of the methods for effecting such trances:
Plants (often psychoactive)

* Psilocybin mushrooms
* Cannabis
* Tobacco
* San Pedro cactus
* Peyote[21]
* Ayahuasca[38]
* Cedar
* Datura
* Deadly nightshade
* Fly agaric
* Iboga
* Morning glory
* Sage
* Salvia divinorum

Other

* Dancing
* Singing
* Music
* Icaros / Medicine Songs[38]
* Vigils
* Fasting
* Sweat lodge
* Vision quests
* Mariri
* Swordfighting / Bladesmithing

Shamans will often observe dietary or customary restrictions particular to their tradition. Sometimes these restrictions are more than just cultural. For example, the diet followed by shamans and apprentices prior to participating in an Ayahuasca ceremony includes foods rich in tryptophan (a biosynthetic precursor to serotonin) as well as avoiding foods rich in tyramine, which could induce hypertensive crisis if ingested with MAOIs such as are found in Ayahuasca brews.[38]


Please note that on this list there are a number of plants that are not controlled substances, and I never specified which shamanic drugs it was presumable he could be using. There really are no legal lines being crossed here. If Reggies people are reading this thread, they should join in and clarify any of this for all of us.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Mr. G » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:06 am

Well, we can't prove Ray is popping peyote buttons. But I think when he used the term "shamanic" he was really referring to an altered trance state....I didn't get the vibe he was alluding to drugs. I can see how that could be taken with his whole Native American drumming and sage thing.

And let's not exaggerate about Ray's legal eagles coming to town on this board with your scare tactics Chaz. I could help the owner set up a new forum in less than 24 hours if need be.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:19 am

mr. gordo wrote:But I think when he used the term "shamanic" he was really referring to an altered trance state....I didn't get the vibe he was alluding to drugs..


Sure but using entheogens is the most common method for entering into altered trance states among the shamanic cultures of the Americas. And since he is using the term 'shamanic', and borrowing other elements from Native American shamanic cultures, we can't rule it out either. I was merely hypothesizing that such a cathartic break from his past teaching presentations and views could be more easily explained in the context of peak experiences with powerful plants, and when he starts justifying controversial decisions he has made through describing visions of his teacher CTR, some of which while in self-described 'shamanic' states, as well as visions of protectors manifesting in front of him, one does wonder a little. .

[Edit] -- I believe that CTR is quite available in Samboghakaya aspect, as I have heard some accounts from friends who had vivid visions of him while staying at Gampo Abbey-- and they had never even met him while he was alive. But I don't think either of them would have ever described their states as "shamanic" during these visions. Like I said, the adjective shamanic lends a particular flavor and cultural context.
Last edited by Adamantine on Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dr. Reginald Ray

Postby Adamantine » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:30 am

And just another complementary thing for this thread:

When quickly doing follow up research on Ray and Shamanism- I came across Neil McKinlay's website, who calls himself a "Senior Teacher within Dharma Ocean"- On this website, he makes claims about his siddhis, -so I guess this is just a normal thing for Ray and those studying with him- but what's more, he charges a fixed rate for them. Is this Dharma? Like I said, I think a major part of the context here is marketing.

Neil's shamanic work also arises out of his training with Reggie Ray. Reflecting the color and liveliness of Chogyam Trungpa's Tibetan Buddhist heritage, an ability to access the unseen realms around us has become increasingly evident as Neil's meditative practice deepens. Today he offers this gift as a resource for practitioners and non-practitioners alike, finding it an invaluable aid in our shared unfolding.


Then:

Shamanic Healing and Guidance

Sometimes we lack the clarity needed to move forward. Perhaps life direction seems uncertain and questions overwhelm us. On other occasions, a sense of obstruction holds us in place. We might also find ourselves frozen by a feeling that something - some very important part of us - is missing. In such situations, we can turn to individuals gifted with an ability to see, hear, and feel a world beyond our typically limited sense of what is. Neil McKinlay is one such individual.

• Guidance and Divination - Helps us identify the direction life wishes to take,
while revealing and addressing possible obstacles to this.
• Soul Retrieval - A means of rediscovering and, over time, integrating aspects of
ourselves that have been forced outside ordinary awareness.

• Healing - Uses life energy to restore well-being in areas where this has been compromised.
• Cleansing and Extraction - Removes obstructing patterns and attachments from our being.
• Initiation - Opens us to and contextualizes us within a broader, more encompassing state of being.
• Grounding and Embodiment - Connects us with the body and with the elements of which life is created.
A typical consultation consists of three parts: information gathering, shamanic exploration, and follow up
discussion/healing. Initial sessions run two to three hours in length as the amount of information
gathering required is often considerable. Subsequent consultations are shorter, lasting between one and
two hours. Many clients find an initial consultation with periodic updates beneficial for their ongoing
journey. Others find a single session to be a suitable resource. Personal day-long intensives offer a third
means of working with Neil in a shamanic context.

The cost for each of these options runs on a sliding scale of $65-$95 per hour (applicable taxes
included). Once a session is complete, the total time spent doing the work is multiplied by the amount
on the scale that feels most appropriate. The resulting tally provides a session's complete fee.


Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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