Jesus, a Buddhist?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Dexing
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Dexing »

mr. gordo wrote:
Urgyen Chodron wrote:It cannot be denied that both taught compassion, love, kamma, etc.-
And in terms of Karma, I don't believe Jesus taught it the way Buddha taught it involving rebirth and enlightenment in reference to the 12 links of dependent origination.
Exactly!

Karma as taught by the Buddha requires rebirth and numerous lifetimes to function.

Jesus taught of one life on Earth caused by a creator god, and eternal life or damnation following.

"Reap what you sow" is not a teaching of karma, it is explained:

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
  • "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity.

    If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the LORD your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.

    But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the LORD swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob."
So, "reap what you sow" means if you follow god and keep the commandments then you get rewarded with life and blessings, but if you turn away then you get punished with death and you will perish.

Karma has nothing to do with another being setting punishment and reward before you for your choices and actions.

Jesus did not teach karma.

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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Rael
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Rael »

I once again have to state....

when the dharma Wheel is turned ...all sorts of philosophies and religions appear...

some oppossing ...but for a reason...

Christianity tamed Rome...it laid the foundations for what we have today in the west....

freedom of speech and religion....

we know there is no invisible guy in the sky who made all this.....

but we also know that this world has to be tamed for people to be in a position to be able to freely learn the Dharma...


wasn't the last Brahma dude against the Dharma and did he not want people learning this stuff and some Buddha killed him and then this Brahma dude came into being who likes dharma...


IT'S ALL SO BIGGER THAN ARGUING OVER DIFFERENCES OF BELIEF SYSTEMS...
Love Love Love
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fragrant herbs
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by fragrant herbs »

I never said that they were all equivalent. I said that much of Christ's teachings were taken from Buddhist texts. What has been taken is equivalent. So I am merely saying that there are parallel teachings, not with just what Jesus said, but with his life as well. I don't have time to list them all here, which is why I suggested the book, The Original Jesus. But it really doesn't matter if you believe that there are parallel teachings or not. Learning the dharma is the main importance. But if someone desires to know where Jesus, a Buddhist or not, they can find these teachings? As I have said, I had once found a book on Buddhism and was shocked at the similarities. Other scholars have as well. And some have suggested that Christ may have been an invention because the teachings are so much like Buddhism. It doesn't matter whether Jesus went to India or not. I don't think the parallel teachings rest on this being true or not. I just mentioned it, but as I have said in an earlier post, Christ may not have existed. All we have are several gospels that are much like Buddhism, not in all that Buddha taught, but in enough teachings to have scholars believe that the teachings were taken from Buddhist texts. And if anyone is interesting in this subject, there are enough books out there that do these comparisons.

I only brought up the belief by some that Jesus went to India because another poster had brought it up, and I said that there was a lot of controversy over it. With Notovich and a swami from the Ramakrishna Order having claimed to have seen them and with the Buddhist claiming that they didn't exist. So they are not proof. I never said that they were.

And then many of the teachings in the Bible have been changed by the church. And example of this is on the teachings of "Sheol" and "Hades," which is translated as "Hell." The churches teach a burning fire that lasts forever. But if you go to Strong's Exhaustive Bible Concordance, which you can online, you will learn that the translation for this is the "common grave." I have seen the same translation in the margins of an old King James Bible. I even went to a seminary in Berkeley and talked to a minister who said that it is true, there is no burning hell, but if he taught that to others they would not listen.

And yes, the Gospels do teach rebirth. This book I mentioned, The Original Jesus, goes into detailed proof. And by the way, I don't believe in the Old Testament, and I don't believe that Christ taught from it.

But I am not here to argue the issues as that can get so exhausting. I only came to answer the original posters question. So I leave it up to others to decide for themselves. If you desire to believe that Jesus taught one life and eternal damnation then I can't really change that. I know how these teachings from the churches get embedded in one's mind and can't be changed unless one desires to look further by going into other studies.

As for me, I wanted to learn what Jesus taught and how it compared with Buddha's teachings because, one, I read it myself when picking up a Buddhist book; and 2. I wanted to make peace with what I once believed were Christ's teachings, teaching that I believed were very harmful but now know differently.
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Rael
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Rael »

some random thoughts....not necessarily truth>>>>>


It is important to realize that the Christ that died ,and that the early martyrs who died in the Roman coliseums were quite different than the one the Emperor Constantine created...

Constantine turned Christian after he dreamt of a crucifix the night before a battle he was surely going to lose ...He promised the Christian God he would turn Christian if he won. At the time Christianity was an outlawed religion...He won and decided to turn Christian and make it the religion of rome...

But he was divine so he could not have some fisher of men as a god.....

so he turned Jesus into a god by way of the son of God deal...


the Vatican was created in the the Roman capitol city...Rome...and well...like all roman religions it was used politically to control the mob.

the Christians went along with due to the fact they were being murdered for entertainment....

Jesus never said he was God...
i liken him saying his father in heaven as another way of calling his Kaya body father in Heaven.....

its all been twisted.....


BUT


the message tamed the Roman Empire and Europe eventually ...an expedient means to tame the masses and bring good thought, deads and words to the masses...all in all a lot of good Karma produced by otherwise barbarians....
Love Love Love
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Grigoris
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Grigoris »

That Christianity and Buddhism share some attributes is obvious. But then it is also obvious that all the major religions share these attributes. Did Mohammad also study in India? Did Brahmins study Buddhism before the existence of Buddha? Silly questions right? Morality and ethics are not the monopoly of one religion or another, actually morality and ethics even exist in societies that claim (or claimed) to possess no religion at all. I think that you will find that the need for morality and ethics arises as a consequence of human need for social living and a safe and secure environment for their social existence.

All this aside, there are a suprising number of parallels between the religions of Buddhism and Christianity and it is hard to tell (in both cases) how much of the original practice/philosophy has been warped over time to fulfil political aims.

The other thread underlying these similarities is the human need for spirituality. This need is/was seen even in atheist societies. Perhaps, instead of fucusing on the differences between traditions we should be looking at the underlying asumptions that unite them since they seem to be a necessary component of our existence. Did Christ teach karma? Did Buddha teach salvation? Did Mohammad teach egoless surrender to the divine? Sticking on details we lose sight of the broader picture.
I believe there is an important distinction to be made between religion and spirituality. Religion I take to be concerned with belief in the claims to salvation of one faith tradition or another - an aspect of which is acceptance of some form of metaphysical or philosophical reality, including perhaps an idea of heaven or hell. Conected with this are religious teachings or dogma, ritual, prayers and so on. Spirituality I take to be concerned with those qualities of the human spirit - such as love and compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, a sense of responsibility, a sense of harmony, which brings happiness to both self and others. While ritual and prayer, along with questions of Nirvana and salvation are directly connected with religious faith, these inner qualities need not be, however. Thus there is no reason why the individual should not develop them even to a high degree, without recourse to any religious or metaphysical belief system. This is why I sometimes say religion is something we can perhaps can do without. What we cannot do without are these basic spiritual qualities.
A quote from a book by HHDL which I don't remember the title of. :smile:
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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fragrant herbs
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by fragrant herbs »

All this aside, there are a suprising number of parallels between the religions of Buddhism and Christianity and it is hard to tell (in both cases) how much of the original practice/philosophsy has been warped over time to fulfil political aims.
Yes, all religions share similarities, but with Christianity the teachings have been greatly warped. When scriptures in the Bible have inklings of rebirth, the Christians try to get around it:
"The few Bible references indicate that from the earliest times supporters and opponents of reincarnation have waged bitter ‘war’. Jesus’ remark to Nicodemus, for instance, "Thou must be born again" can be interpreted as a reference to spiritual rebirth, according to the opponents of the idea (of reincarnation). http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/sint.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nowadays, there is little doubt that early Christians gave more credence to the concept of rebirth than was later the case. The main figure responsible for this change was no churchman but an ambitious, worldly and powerful figure Emperor Justinius. In the year 553, quite independently of the Pope, Justinius had the teachings of the church father Origen (185-253) banned by a synod. Origen had spoken out in unmistakable terms on the question of the repeated incarnations of the soul:

"Each soul enters the world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defects of its past lives. Its place in this world is determined by past virtues and shortcomings." De Principalis.
When I first read Buddha's life in a book, I was even surprised that the parables were the same as the Bible's. Even being tempted by Mara, etc. So it isn't that they just teach love and compassion, it is that the gospels were based on Buddhist texts as well as their own teachings and embellishments.

In the book I am reading they even have side by side readings of the Sermon on the Mmount with the Dhammapada. But you can't just read it side by side because the teachings are presented in a different order.

So all I am saying is that much is borrowed from Buddhist texts, unless there was a Christ that learned Buddhism and combined it in his teachings.

There is another book out, The Five Gospels, done by the Jesus Seminar:
The Jesus Seminar, a group of scholars who have attempted to locate the authentic words of Jesus, made headlines two years ago by reporting that, of the entire Lord's Prayer as found in Matthew, the only words that could conclusively be attributed to Jesus are "Our Father." In this book they have published their results.
'The Jesus Seminar is a group of about 150 biblical scholars and laymen founded in 1985 by Robert Funk and John Dominic Crossan under the auspices of the Westar Institute."

"The seminar holds a number of premises or "scholarly wisdom" about Jesus when critically approaching the gospels. They act on the premise that Jesus did not hold an apocalyptic worldview..."

http://www.westarinstitute.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Mr. G
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Mr. G »

Urgyen Chodron wrote: Other scholars have as well
Hi Urgyen,

This is where I strong disagree, and have not seen evidence of any definitive work by any major Buddhist scholar (Conze, Harvey, Collins, Williams, Gombrich, Hopkins, Cabezon etc.) that states this. You mention Tom Wright's book, but he is a Christian Theologian who does not possess the depth of Buddhist history as the scholars I've mentioned. I think we need to tread carefully when we start stating that "scholars agree...". This is just not true.
  • How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Grigoris
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Grigoris »

At some point in time my lama sent me a link to some Buddhist scholar (I don't remember now) who compared word-for-word and stanza-for-stanza a Pali Canon text and an "original" bible written in Greek. He found that not only was the bible a complete rip-off of the Pali Canon text in terms of meaning/content but that the poetical meter of the two texts was exactly the same down to the last syllable. The guy was really into counting and quite numerological. Anyway...

When I began trying to make sense of spirituality, after a long foray into Western anarchist based materialism, I found a book called the Holy Cross and the Sacred Mushroom. In this book the author compared an "original" bible written in Babylonian (Aramaic, the language Jesus would have spoken, was ancient Babylonian, the tribes of Israel brought it with them as their language after their stay as slaves in Babylon) and found that the bible actually described magical rituals based on shamanic Agaric rituals. Anyway...

Here in Greece there is currently a tv ad running for a dial-up info service 11888. In the ad a strange looking young man (like a conspiracy-theory-computer-nerd-general-weirdo looking type, I think you know what I mean?) finds himself in various situations conversing with a variety of folks and in every situation, numerologically, the number 11888 comes up. The slogan is: "Coincidence? I don't think so!"

If you look for links/relationships you will always find them. The question for me is not “What/why do you want to find/prove it?” but “What will be the outcome for your practice if you find/prove it?” In other words: Will it influence your practice positively? Will it be worth the effort you put into trying to find/prove it? Will your time have been better spent in practice, rather than searching/proving?
When I teach meditation I try to put things in perspective for the folks in the group by drawing parallels between Buddhism and Christianity, but I use this merely as an expedient means. To frame ideas for them in a perspective they understand. I believe that Christianity (as it now stands) is not Buddhism and even if it was, once-upon-a-time, well… :shrug:
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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fragrant herbs
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by fragrant herbs »

Interesting post Greg.

I got into the subject in order to make peace with Christianity, but not as it is practiced today. And maybe it was just to make peace with how I felt about Christ in the past, with his judgments, which i know longer see now.

And it is so easy to get off into studying these matters, which makes me think I would have loved to have been part of the Jesus Seminar, but just like video games on the computer, it can be addictive. And it is much better to spend ones time studying the dharma as you said, and even i touched on that a earlier post.

When people come on Buddhist websites and ask questions about whether Christ was a Buddhist or not, i always think that perhaps they have some unfinished business with their Christian upbringing that they are trying to deal with, but i could be wrong and so perhaps am projecting.
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by catmoon »

Urgyen Chodron wrote: There is no evidence that Jesus existed

I would say there is one heck of a lot more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Buddha existed, so if standards are set that preclude Jesus' existence then Buddha would have to go too.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Course Buddha never claimed he existed.

:stirthepot:
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Hanzze
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Hanzze »

Achaan Chah asked a monk who was leaving if he was planning to teach when he got back to the West. No, he had no particular plans to teach Dharma, he replied, although if someone asked, he would do his best to explain how to practice.

"Very good," Achaan Chah said, "it is beneficial to speak about the Dharma to those who inquire. And when you explain it," he went on, "why not call it Christianity. They won't understand in the West if you say anything about Buddha.

"I speak of God to Christians, yet I have not read their books. I find God in the heart. Do you think God is Santa Claus, who comes once a year with gifts for children? God is Dharma, the truth; the one who sees this sees all things. And yet God is nothing special-just this.

"What we are really teaching is how to be free from suffering, how to be loving and wise and filled with compassion. This teaching is the Dharma, anywhere in any language. So call it Christianity. Then it will be easier for some of them to understand."

Achaan Chah had this advice for an aspiring Dharma teacher:
"Don't let them scare you. Be firm and direct. Be clear about your own shortcomings, and acknowledge your limits. Work with love and compassion, and when people are beyond your ability to help, develop equanimity. Sometimes teaching is hard work. Teachers become garbage cans for people's frustrations and problems. The more people you teach, the bigger the garbage disposal problem. Don't worry. Teaching is a wonderful way to practice Dharma. The Dharma can help all those who genuinely apply it in their lives. Those who teach grow in patience and understanding."

Achaan Chah encourages his students to share what they learn. "When you have learned the truth, you will be able to help others, sometimes with words but mostly through your being. As for conversing about Dharma, I am not so adept at it. Whoever wants to know me should live with me. If you stay for a long time, you will see. I myself wandered as a forest monk for many years. I did not teach-I practiced and listened to what the masters said. This is important advice: when you listen, really listen. I do not know what else 'to say."

He had said enough to last us a long time.
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meindzai
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by meindzai »

Rael wrote:I once again have to state....

when the dharma Wheel is turned ...all sorts of philosophies and religions appear...

some oppossing ...but for a reason...

Christianity tamed Rome...it laid the foundations for what we have today in the west....

freedom of speech and religion....

we know there is no invisible guy in the sky who made all this.....

but we also know that this world has to be tamed for people to be in a position to be able to freely learn the Dharma...


wasn't the last Brahma dude against the Dharma and did he not want people learning this stuff and some Buddha killed him and then this Brahma dude came into being who likes dharma...


IT'S ALL SO BIGGER THAN ARGUING OVER DIFFERENCES OF BELIEF SYSTEMS...
Though i have no idea what you're talking about in your second to last sentence, some of what you said resonates with me in the sense that, although I am very suspicious of Christianity as a way of life, I can't deny that a lot of what I take for granted these days has it's roots in Christianity. Music being one example. Some of the most beautiful music has it's roots in the Churches. Then there's a lot of great literature out there. I actually love the Divine Comedy (Dante) for it's richness despite the fact that I'm about as catholic as, well, the Buddha...

I also enjoy parts of the bible as literature. I also like the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, so I'm not sure what that says about my taste for literature.

-M
"The Dharma is huge." - Rael
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Rael
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Rael »

meindzai wrote:
Rael wrote:I once again have to state....

when the dharma Wheel is turned ...all sorts of philosophies and religions appear...

some oppossing ...but for a reason...

Christianity tamed Rome...it laid the foundations for what we have today in the west....

freedom of speech and religion....

we know there is no invisible guy in the sky who made all this.....

but we also know that this world has to be tamed for people to be in a position to be able to freely learn the Dharma...


wasn't the last Brahma dude against the Dharma and did he not want people learning this stuff and some Buddha killed him and then this Brahma dude came into being who likes dharma...


IT'S ALL SO BIGGER THAN ARGUING OVER DIFFERENCES OF BELIEF SYSTEMS...
Though i have no idea what you're talking about in your second to last sentence, some of what you said resonates with me in the sense that, although I am very suspicious of Christianity as a way of life, I can't deny that a lot of what I take for granted these days has it's roots in Christianity. Music being one example. Some of the most beautiful music has it's roots in the Churches. Then there's a lot of great literature out there. I actually love the Divine Comedy (Dante) for it's richness despite the fact that I'm about as catholic as, well, the Buddha...

I also enjoy parts of the bible as literature. I also like the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, so I'm not sure what that says about my taste for literature.

-M
Though i have no idea what you're talking about
no worries neither do I.....lol...but its fun putting words together on the internet and seeing what happens....

just kidding...i'm in a weird mood today....

There was this talk A Tulku gave us once and I also read it it somewhere in one of my books...

it's a lil sketchy , i'm not good at recalling things exactly as they were told to me/


The Tulku I am a student of studied the Vedic teachings and He believed in the gods and demi god realms....

He put them in perspective for me...which is not what i'm going to talk here but maybe a new thread down in the basement of this place where i hang out might happen....

anyways....you do know that when a Buddha turns the Dharma Wheel all these teachings and gurus and teachers and religions appear all over Samsara....

One Lama said the clue to as whether a teaching comes from the turning is you will find love and compassion as it's base motive.....

soooooo...

We live in a world where Brahma Shiva and Vishnu together produce and maintain the illusion we dwell in....

the last entity that was in the position of trust like our Brahma wasn't really into people practicing Dharma. Somehow he made it very tuff on the Enlightened Ones to do Their Thing.....(me modo today is a lil weird hence the language).....

So someone stepped up to the plate and struck him down....wacked him....and then this god in that position who is known as Brahma was born and Brahma really likes Dharma and the enlightened ones.....

Buddha has visited him, the Buddha Goddess Sarasvati Image

taught him stuff with her magical dharani .......


Iforget who killed the guy, but the story whether historic or not is prolly up for grabs......


it's a good idea to not listen to what i say as I'm prone to madness...like today....
Love Love Love
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Rael
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Rael »

oh and seeing this is about Jesus who i believe is Buddha or at the very least came to earth due to the Turning of The Dharma Wheel
Image


and what pray tell is going on here
Image
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Rael
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Rael »

the last image with the Tantric lights is on a Catholic church ...it's this beautiful stain glass ...down my street...

i see it as healing all those who pass by.....

the Dharma is huge....

you have to say huge like Paris hilton for effect...

"The Dharma is huge"
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Namu Butsu
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Namu Butsu »

Jesus was not Buddhist or christian. Jesus never existed as a mythical figure or a historical figure. As a mythical figure we see the pagan roots of that tradition. As far as historical evidence all we can do is accept Eusebius writings and compilations of so called historical records. Scholars have shown clearly that these are forgeries. And since Eusebius is Constantine's home boy ...I really do not think we can accept what this guy says. In the records of the Romans there is no mention of killing of Jesus or Jesus existing. Check out Peter Gandy's books.
Image
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"However hard it may be to bid farewell to this world, when the conditions that bind us to this saha [samsara] realm run out, we are powerless to do anything as the final hour arrives and we are swept away to that Land." -A Record in Lament of Divergences
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Grigoris »

Namu Butsu wrote:Jesus was not Buddhist or christian. Jesus never existed as a mythical figure or a historical figure. As a mythical figure we see the pagan roots of that tradition. As far as historical evidence all we can do is accept Eusebius writings and compilations of so called historical records. Scholars have shown clearly that these are forgeries. And since Eusebius is Constantine's home boy ...I really do not think we can accept what this guy says. In the records of the Romans there is no mention of killing of Jesus or Jesus existing. Check out Peter Gandy's books.
"I thought a Persian had a red beard, now I know a Persian that has a red beard".
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Namu Butsu
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Namu Butsu »

There is no Persian nor is there a person who knows a Persian
:namaste:
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"Just say the nembutsu and be liberated" Shinran Shonin
"However hard it may be to bid farewell to this world, when the conditions that bind us to this saha [samsara] realm run out, we are powerless to do anything as the final hour arrives and we are swept away to that Land." -A Record in Lament of Divergences
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Grigoris
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Re: Jesus, a Buddhist?

Post by Grigoris »

Try telling that to this guy.
imagesCA176TMU.jpg
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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