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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:47 am 
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There are so many vows that I need to ask my self, if those vows makes sense. What brings me to the question, was there somebody who encouraged to develop once mind in the way to take more and more vows.

Is it usually to take vows?
Is it possible to take wholesome vows?
Who had the idea of taking vows?

Was it actually taught?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
There are so many vows that I need to ask my self, if those vows makes sense. What brings me to the question, was there somebody who encouraged to develop once mind in the way to take more and more vows.

Is it usually to take vows?
Is it possible to take wholesome vows?
Who had the idea of taking vows?

Was it actually taught?


Theravadan, but it'll be more than enough for you.

Vinaya Pitaka

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Thank you very much Mr. Gordo, I will look over it. Why do you think it will be more than enough for me? It sounds so selective, but that is just my impression.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:04 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
Thank you very much Mr. Gordo, I will look over it. Why do you think it will be more than enough for me? It sounds so selective, but that is just my impression.


Because you will gain a better understanding by studying Sarvastivadan Vinaya before studying the Mūlasarvāstivāda vinaya

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Meanwhile I had tried to find something about the roots in theravadin recources and found this:

Quote:
...early-period Mahāyāna Buddhism takes as its starting point the long-range cosmic background to a Buddha's attainment of Buddhahood. It looks back to his first conception of the bodhicitta, his original vows, and his practice of the pāramitās over countless lives, and treats these as the paradigm for practice. That is, it sees this process, not merely as a description of the path that a Buddha follows, but as a recommendation of the path that his true disciples should follow... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ttvas.html


actually, it does not fit my question. So there is still the desire to know: Who had the ideas of vows? Was it taught? ...as it is also not really a Mahayana recourse:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
actually, it does not fit my question. So there is still the desire to know: Who had the ideas of vows? Was it taught? ...as it is also not really a Mahayana recourse:


Your questions are easily answered if you take the additional time to look for them:

"Gotamī, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered and not to being fettered; to shedding and not to accumulating; to modesty and not to arrogance; to contentment and not to discontent; to seclusion and not to entanglement; to aroused energy and not to idleness; to being unburdensome and not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" — Cv.X.5

In establishing his religion of release, though, the Buddha did not simply set out a body of recommendations and rules. He also founded a company (parisā) of followers. This company falls into four main groups: bhikkhus (monks), bhikkhunīs (nuns), lay men, and lay women. Although the Buddha saw no need to organize the laity in any manner, he arranged for the bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs — who had given up the entanglements of the household life to devote themselves more fully to the goal of release — to develop into communities. And he saw that they needed, as all communities do, ideals and standards, rules and customs to ensure their stability. This need is what gave rise to the Vinaya.

In the early years of the Buddha's career, the texts tell us, there was no need to formulate monastic disciplinary rules. All of the bhikkhus in his following — the Community of bhikkhunīs had not yet been started — were men of high personal attainments who had succeeded in subduing many or all of their mental defilements. They knew his teachings well and behaved accordingly. The Canon tells of how Ven. Sāriputta, one of the Buddha's foremost disciples, asked the Buddha at an early date to formulate a Pāṭimokkha, or code of rules, to ensure that the celibate life the Buddha had founded would last long, just as a thread holding together a floral arrangement ensures that the flowers are not scattered by the wind. The Buddha replied that the time for such a code had not yet come, for even the most backward of the men in the Community at that time had already had their first glimpse of the goal. Only when mental effluents (āsava) made themselves felt in the Community would there be a need for a Pāṭimokkha.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... intro.html

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Thanks a lot for your effort!
So when I cut this into a short answer, could we say (if rules and vows could be revered as the same - what I actually can not see like that jet) that:

Vows have not been taught by Buddha.

What could made the questions in the OP makes sense.

When I look into the Theravadin recources I always find what our honorable friend TMingyur always remembers us "Right view"

Quote:
"When a person has wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, wrong knowledge, & wrong release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever determinations, whatever vows, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is disagreeable, unpleasing, unappealing, unprofitable, & stressful. Why is that? Because the view is evil.

"Just as when a nimb-tree seed, a bitter creeper seed, or a bitter melon seed is placed in moist soil, whatever nutriment it takes from the soil & the water, all conduces to its bitterness, acridity, & distastefulness. Why is that? Because the seed is evil. In the same way, when a person has wrong view... wrong release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever determinations, whatever vows, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is disagreeable, unpleasing, unappealing, unprofitable, & stressful. Why is that? Because the view is evil.

"When a person has right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge, & right release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever vows, whatever determinations, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is agreeable, pleasing, charming, profitable, & easeful. Why is that? Because the view is auspicious.

"Just as when a sugar cane seed, a rice grain, or a grape seed is placed in moist soil, whatever nutriment it takes from the soil & the water, all conduces to its sweetness, tastiness, & unalloyed delectability. Why is that? Because the seed is auspicious. In the same way, when a person has right view... right release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever vows, whatever determinations, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is agreeable, pleasing, charming, profitable, & easeful. Why is that? Because the view is auspicious." Bija Sutta: The Seed


But the right view leads easy to misunderstanding and the possibility of hits in conflicts as it is natural when we are walking relatively through the teachings of the Buddha. I guess that is also the reason, why some decide to walk an ultimate way.

When we for example look on children education, we will see, that some years ago it was general usual to give children rules, ratter to explain and let them see and understand by them self. I guess it is a general dependence in education that rules making no sense and we all know that rules are always executed by opinions and never be able to be measured in a satisfactoriness way.

Can it be that a vow may lead you a little, but actually is a hindrance to get the ultimate understanding and is it possible that even in the beginning it could be a burden, because one would focus always on them without searching for the resource inside, which could lead one more direct to a wholesome way?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:38 pm 
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http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7082

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99&start=0

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:23 pm 
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mr. gordo,

what we do not accept with our heart will come again and again. Even when we reject it many life times. Hope is tricky.
So what do you resume for the discussion on the bother site? How about the vows and vow vows and new creation of vows (I believe you see vows as a kind of rule, but correct me, it could be also that they are actually)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
mr. gordo,

what we do not accept with our heart will come again and again. Even when we reject it many life times. Hope is tricky.


I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Quote:
So what do you resume for the discussion on the bother site? How about the vows and vow vows and new creation of vows (I believe you see vows as a kind of rule, but correct me, it could be also that they are actually)


What I believe in terms of what the Vinaya is has already been explained above.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Dear Mr. Gordo,
as I didn't revered to Vinaya: Vinaya = vows = rules?
I guess I am not good and exact in questioning.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:14 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
Dear Mr. Gordo,
as I didn't revered to Vinaya: Vinaya = vows = rules?
I guess I am not good and exact in questioning.


Vinaya [vinaya]:The monastic discipline, spanning six volumes in printed text, whose rules and traditions define every aspect of the bhikkhus' and bhikkhunis' way of life. The essence of the rules for monastics is contained in the Patimokkha. The conjunction of the Dhamma with the Vinaya forms the core of the Buddhist religion: "Dhamma-vinaya" — "the doctrine and discipline" — is the name the Buddha gave to the religion he founded.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Who told that? Or do you just refer to your believe?
Quote:
"Dhamma-vinaya" — "the doctrine and discipline" — is the name the Buddha gave to the religion he founded.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
Who told that? Or do you just refer to your believe?
Quote:
"Dhamma-vinaya" — "the doctrine and discipline" — is the name the Buddha gave to the religion he founded.


Are you asking if "Buddhism" as taught by the "Buddha" is something that cannot be grapsed by sutras unless I've had direct teaching from a Buddha? You're being absurd. If you want to have a discussion where you want to discuss your rather droll form of skepticism, there are other New Age forums I'm sure you could go to.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Wohh! Is that a part of the vows?
Actually I could not find a hint that the Buddha founded a religion (would lead to off topic) and also no hint that he gave rules. But that would not answer my question about "Who told that, or is that your believe?"

(I am very conservative in a kind of ultimative, I do not like New Age at all. I think there is no different between new and old, maybe more difficult.)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
Actually I could not find a hint that the Buddha founded a religion


Oh really? It seems like you made little to no effort to look.

Read books by Paul Williams, Richard Gombrich, Peter Harvey...etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:53 pm 
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Did they had the idea of vows or did they taught it? ups, it was about religion (sorry)

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
Did they had the idea of vows or did they taught it? ups, it was about religion (sorry)


This was already answered in this thread. Please take the time to re-read it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:58 pm 
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What I could find, was only that it was created because disciples had the desire. Actually that was the reason of my post. Or did I get it wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Hanzze wrote:
Vows have not been taught by Buddha.


No, Buddha did teach vows. The Buddha taught the Uposatha practice or in the Mahayana the Eight Mahayana Precepts (these are the same in both the Southern and Northern tradition although the explicit Bodhisattva motivation in the Northern tradition is what distinguishes them). I have read a commentary where it is stated that the Buddha had adapted a contemporaneous Vedic practice to the Uposatha (and the Muluposatha Sutta may imply this) but I can't find the reference.

The rules he established for the sangha came up as a result of infractions to liberative activity that arose during his lifetime (violations of the Eightfold Path mostly) including people trying to weasel out technicalities. So the Buddha did establish many of these rules and they became vows, perhaps during his lifetime or perhaps more systematized after his lifetime (so during the First Council vows may have been explicitly added as vows).

Kirt

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