Rebirth and endless time

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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby mudra » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:58 am

Rael wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Please don't ignore the facts! It is a well known fact that medieval Europe got mathematics & other sciences from the islamic world, even the greek ideas were reintroduced to Europe through arabic world, etc...
And please look again what it says about the History of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science Truth is the opposite of what you say.



Islam is only about 750 years old....The actual religion and belief that God gave the Quran to someone is totally unscientific. Islam is not Science as well...ROFL!!! Islam gave nothing to science...


Mathematics per say is not really Science , but yes some would argue it is.

The early Greek philosophers known as Pre-socratics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Socratic_philosophy
gave the west the foundations for their philosophy, religion, and the sciences.

I think instead of the word Science you should use Epistemology...lol....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology


psuedo science abounds ....and trying to meld Buddha's words and science is just not going to wash with me...ANYMORE...for like i said i did at one time....

Please for the sake of decent debate...could you show us some science in Buddhism.
Actual Science.

Then if you so wish, some Science that came from ancient India or the pre islamic arab world, besides Math...


Rael -

Islam is almost twice as old as you cite for a start. We are now in the Hijra year 1432.

And it is a fact that much of modern western culture owes quite a bit in applied science: astronomy, music, agriculture, mathematics, medicine etc to the Moors transferring knowledge which they in turn of course had received variously from India and so forth. But certainly the Islamic cultures did add to all this knowledge they inherited and transmitted it thru Spain to Europe. Not to admit this is a little myopic. For goodness sakes the Europeans were the last in on the land mass that extend to Asia to get the 'zero'.

And there were cultures before the Greeks (I know, I know it's hard for some westerners to wrap their minds around this but it's a fact) and even the Greeks inherited and developed philosphies etc based on what they got.

The reality is that mankind inherits ideas and techniques from predecessors, develops them, passes them on. It's called the greater civilization.

Now a little more specific:

Stating Mathematics is not a science might get you into a long polemic about what a science is. In Latin "scientia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science means knowledge, organized, tested etc. I would love to hear you tell a serious mathematician that it isn't a science. And I would love to hear you tell it to a Physicist or astronomer etc that their science relies on something totally 'unscientific', namely mathematics.

Good luck.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:00 am

mudra wrote:
Rael wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Please don't ignore the facts! It is a well known fact that medieval Europe got mathematics & other sciences from the islamic world, even the greek ideas were reintroduced to Europe through arabic world, etc...
And please look again what it says about the History of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science Truth is the opposite of what you say.



Islam is only about 750 years old....The actual religion and belief that God gave the Quran to someone is totally unscientific. Islam is not Science as well...ROFL!!! Islam gave nothing to science...


Mathematics per say is not really Science , but yes some would argue it is.

The early Greek philosophers known as Pre-socratics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Socratic_philosophy
gave the west the foundations for their philosophy, religion, and the sciences.

I think instead of the word Science you should use Epistemology...lol....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology


psuedo science abounds ....and trying to meld Buddha's words and science is just not going to wash with me...ANYMORE...for like i said i did at one time....

Please for the sake of decent debate...could you show us some science in Buddhism.
Actual Science.

Then if you so wish, some Science that came from ancient India or the pre islamic arab world, besides Math...


Rael -

Islam is almost twice as old as you cite for a start. We are now in the Hijra year 1432.

And it is a fact that much of modern western culture owes quite a bit in applied science: astronomy, music, agriculture, mathematics, medicine etc to the Moors transferring knowledge which they in turn of course had received variously from India and so forth. But certainly the Islamic cultures did add to all this knowledge they inherited and transmitted it thru Spain to Europe. Not to admit this is a little myopic. For goodness sakes the Europeans were the last in on the land mass that extend to Asia to get the 'zero'.

And there were cultures before the Greeks (I know, I know it's hard for some westerners to wrap their minds around this but it's a fact) and even the Greeks inherited and developed philosphies etc based on what they got.

The reality is that mankind inherits ideas and techniques from predecessors, develops them, passes them on. It's called the greater civilization.

Now a little more specific:

Stating Mathematics is not a science might get you into a long polemic about what a science is. In Latin "scientia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science means knowledge, organized, tested etc. I would love to hear you tell a serious mathematician that it isn't a science. And I would love to hear you tell it to a Physicist or astronomer etc that their science relies on something totally 'unscientific', namely mathematics.

Good luck.


I stand corrected to the age of Islam..

I said math to some scientists is not science...

trying to say Science came from Buddhism ??? thats what he said in the thread

i tried to meld the two for years....it's not there...

Buddha did not teach science...and there was no science at the time in India


if you want to correct me on those ...please do...

science as we know it and what it is is a western development...
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby mudra » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:24 am

Rael, I was just addressing the points I brought up. I will sit and wait for you two continue your debate. :coffee:
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:15 pm

mudra wrote:Rael, I was just addressing the points I brought up. I will sit and wait for you two continue your debate. :coffee:

your previous post did spark a stark reminder to me ...that everything including the growth of man's knowledge and advancements in various fields are interconnected..

Influence is not just a word....it is apparent that influence is an important factor in seeing how and where human endeavor like science develop...

I understand Aemilius perspective...but when you actually try and show where Science developed from Buddhism ...itsa stretch i never took...although i tried to read science into the teachings...
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:46 pm

Rael wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Please don't ignore the facts! It is a well known fact that medieval Europe got mathematics & other sciences from the islamic world, even the greek ideas were reintroduced to Europe through arabic world, etc...
And please look again what it says about the History of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science Truth is the opposite of what you say.



Islam is only about 750 years old....The actual religion and belief that God gave the Quran to someone is totally unscientific. Islam is not Science as well...ROFL!!! Islam gave nothing to science...


Mathematics per say is not really Science , but yes some would argue it is.

The early Greek philosophers known as Pre-socratics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Socratic_philosophy
gave the west the foundations for their philosophy, religion, and the sciences.

I think instead of the word Science you should use Epistemology...lol....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology


psuedo science abounds ....and trying to meld Buddha's words and science is just not going to wash with me...ANYMORE...for like i said i did at one time....

Please for the sake of decent debate...could you show us some science in Buddhism.
Actual Science.

Then if you so wish, some Science that came from ancient India or the pre islamic arab world, besides Math...


The wikipedia article History of Science answers your questions adequately, just care to read it.
I'm sure the view of isolationism is totally wrong and false; Europe, India and China were not isolated materially, commercially, culturally or philosophically from each others. This is a vast subject in itself, I'm not trying to prove it here. In some other threads I have delved into it a little.

There is a Srilankan scientist K.N. Jayatilleke, who studied in Europe, he was for example a student of L. Witgenstein. He has written a book "Early Budhist Theory Of Knowledge" that is exactly about the topic of science and buddhism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._N._Jayatilleke. Buddhism and science are about Knowledge, about the grounds of knowlwdege. As Jayatilleke points out there are numerous claims in buddhism that are verifiable. On this basis buddhism claims to be the science itself.
These claims are for example:
!. There is Meditation, or Dhyana and states attained through it. This is a hypothesis that is verifiable. And it has been verified numerous times in numerous countries and in numerous cultures.
2. There is a process of rebirth. According to Jayatilleke this thesis is also verifiable.
3. There is Bodhi, or Enlightenment. This thesis the Buddha asks people to test and verify.
4. There are lower and higher worlds. Verifiable? Why not ?
5. and so on...
Last edited by Aemilius on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:53 pm

In The Perfection of Wisdom in 700 Lines, Buddha asks Manjushri:
" And does this cognition, Manjushri, stand up to any test (when threatened with disturbance by outside forces)?"

( Short Prajnaparamita Texts, transl. Edward Conze, p.122, BPG printing)
Last edited by Aemilius on Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:06 pm

The late professor Peter Della Santina touches this subject in his book Fundamentals of Buddhism. He mentions a canonical source for this discussion, Kesaputtiya sutta, then he points out that the Four Major Visions of Siddhartha are all objective observations, namely: Sickness, Old Age, Death and Ascetic. They are observable by everyone, and thus he says that the basis of buddhism is similar to science, it starts from objective observations, observations that are normally overlooked and ignored, although they are present in our lives all the time!
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:58 pm

With all respect to your commentaries on what is science Aemilius , I disagree.
I believed at one time and tried to look at the teachings of Buddha as Science, but it fell short for me.
You can wiki all you want and each thing you wiki there is another wiki , for example that some scientists do not see Math as Science.
I see it as science.

The scientific method is the basis for science.
Also look up falsifiable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability


try and see your science stems from Buddhism statement from those angles...lol.....

Intelligent design proponents have been trying for years to say that intelligent design, a form of creationism , is science.


Now it is my opinion , knowing it is not truly considered a science yet, lol...that completion stage Tantra and all that it implies, is a science....but don't quote me on that.....

Holy Alchemist would argue the same point, that the Tantra is science.....

I'm telling you i thought of it before and still do and trying to show you why i do not think it is fair to label science as something coming from Buddhism...as you did....
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:57 pm

Rael wrote:With all respect to your commentaries on what is science Aemilius , I disagree.
I believed at one time and tried to look at the teachings of Buddha as Science, but it fell short for me.
You can wiki all you want and each thing you wiki there is another wiki , for example that some scientists do not see Math as Science.
I see it as science.

The scientific method is the basis for science.
Also look up falsifiable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability


try and see your science stems from Buddhism statement from those angles...lol.....

Intelligent design proponents have been trying for years to say that intelligent design, a form of creationism , is science.


Now it is my opinion , knowing it is not truly considered a science yet, lol...that completion stage Tantra and all that it implies, is a science....but don't quote me on that.....

Holy Alchemist would argue the same point, that the Tantra is science.....

I'm telling you i thought of it before and still do and trying to show you why i do not think it is fair to label science as something coming from Buddhism...as you did....


The question is to a large extent about authority. "Science" means that you must behave and talk in a certain way to be taken as a "scientist", and then you'll have immense authority.
Science is also like a "Sangha", i.e. a community, this sangha has strict rules, rules of behaviour and of other things.
Leaving all that aside what it says in wikipedia article about the development of scientific principles that have preceded what is now called "science" is true. It means that different principles have been used to evaluate knowledge in buddhism and in other intellectual traditions ( that existed in India, Arabic world, China and in Europe), that are outside of the scientist community of today's world, and still they are science or knowledge, in the true sense if the word.
Knowledge exists in a community of somekind or another, it doen't exist in a vacuum.
What you seem to mean with the word "science" is certain authority and power.
I remember the "falsiblity" principle, I have discussed this topic before, some 20 or 30 years ago, several times. The question is also about cultural chauvinism. Knowledge and experience of lets say pygmies doesn't count, and then you give the name "science" to your inborn racial & cultural prejudices.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:09 pm

Aemilius wrote:What you seem to mean with the word "science" is certain authority and power.

Nope...no.....Nein!!!

Just saying Science did not come from Buddhism...you said that...




Aemilius wrote:
I think it is a false and misleading tendency in modern Dharma to separate and categorize "dharma" and "science" into two isolated and divorced entities . They both describe the same reality, the same world of existence. It is certainly wrong to claim that Dharma has never said anything about the material universe !




Aemilius wrote: Because there was Buddha there is now science. It is a logical consequence, a natural development of Buddha's teaching.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:39 pm

We do not grasp at words or letters, ? Like the word "science" or the letters S,C,I, E & N ?
Words are impermanent, and letters are impermanent too.
Words are dependently arising phenomena, and letters are dependently existent too,
hence they are without permanence and without true reality.
This is explained in the Lankavatara Sutra, where the example is the word "Buddha", and the letters B, U, D, Dh & A.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:35 pm

sounds like your grasping and attached to NOT grasping and NON attachment...

it's a subtle trap....

and we should arrive at the position of agreeing to disagreeing on whether modern day science is here due to Buddhism and as you further stated due to the fact the Buddha understood past present and future....


i would add that Buddha knew of sciences well off into the future...

and like i said in the beginning chose to be born in a time of non science and a country where science was not an issue...
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby muni » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:03 pm

If a wave, born out of the sea can let go concepts of "I am a wave and my birth and death" by having recognition to be water, to be not separate from the vast ocean and nothing others than to be water, experiencing water,
then the wave can stop to seek what is true about its' rebirth as no such concepts can add something in recognizing its' being. When he doesn't, wave thinks to be a wave and hopes to be the first on the beach. :tongue:
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:43 pm

Rael wrote:sounds like your grasping and attached to NOT grasping and NON attachment...

it's a subtle trap....

and we should arrive at the position of agreeing to disagreeing on whether modern day science is here due to Buddhism and as you further stated due to the fact the Buddha understood past present and future....


i would add that Buddha knew of sciences well off into the future...

and like i said in the beginning chose to be born in a time of non science and a country where science was not an issue...


Any indian scientist, or historian, could argue that your claim is totally wrong, see for example this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indian_science_and_technology
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:21 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Rael wrote:
we should arrive at the position of agreeing to disagreeing on whether modern day science is here due to Buddhism and as you further stated due to the fact the Buddha understood past present and future....


i would add that Buddha knew of sciences well off into the future...

and like i said in the beginning chose to be born in a time of non science and a country where science was not an issue...


Any indian scientist, or historian, could argue that your claim is totally wrong, see for example this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indian_science_and_technology


as i said and in fact you can find it on wiki..some would argue math is not science
Carl Friedrich Gauss referred to mathematics as "the Queen of the Sciences".[28] In the original Latin Regina Scientiarum, as well as in German Königin der Wissenschaften, the word corresponding to science means (field of) knowledge. Indeed, this is also the original meaning in English, and there is no doubt that mathematics is in this sense a science. The specialization restricting the meaning to natural science is of later date. If one considers science to be strictly about the physical world, then mathematics, or at least pure mathematics, is not a science.


what is science and what is not is and always will be...up fro grabs.....

My view, the technologies of learning to create fire and then metallurgical work, and the refining the pottery arts....is not science ...per say....

from a modern day perspective ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science



so we can argue over what is science and what is not.....

but i still would like to know what do you mean by...


Aemilius wrote: Buddha defined Dharma as "that which is true", or just "the Truth".
Thus it is the same as the the aim of science, i.e. to find the objective truth.
Because there was Buddha there is now science. It is a logical consequence, a natural development of Buddha's teaching.
Here is something about the Philosophy of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

Because there was Buddha there is now science. It is a logical consequence, a natural development of Buddha's teaching.



to be honest now that i read this again ...and again....

i could say that ...no i can't ...there is a thought trying to come to the surface.....

the thought ...it doesn't develop for the statement needs to be explained.....

i don't want to just say it's simply not true...for you might have a higher meaning that is eluding me....


it makes for interesting thought....that for me....just doesn't mature...into a thought....lol....
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:17 pm

It is highly ridiculous to define physical sciences so that they could do without mathematics. What could they do without mathematics ? Measure something ? Nope, because measuring involves numbers!
Another good article about science and technology in ancient India http://scienceblog.com/cms/blog/7243-science-and-technology-ancient-india-20159.html
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:27 pm

Rael wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Rael wrote:
we should arrive at the position of agreeing to disagreeing on whether modern day science is here due to Buddhism and as you further stated due to the fact the Buddha understood past present and future....


i would add that Buddha knew of sciences well off into the future...

and like i said in the beginning chose to be born in a time of non science and a country where science was not an issue...


Any indian scientist, or historian, could argue that your claim is totally wrong, see for example this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indian_science_and_technology


as i said and in fact you can find it on wiki..some would argue math is not science
Carl Friedrich Gauss referred to mathematics as "the Queen of the Sciences".[28] In the original Latin Regina Scientiarum, as well as in German Königin der Wissenschaften, the word corresponding to science means (field of) knowledge. Indeed, this is also the original meaning in English, and there is no doubt that mathematics is in this sense a science. The specialization restricting the meaning to natural science is of later date. If one considers science to be strictly about the physical world, then mathematics, or at least pure mathematics, is not a science.


what is science and what is not is and always will be...up fro grabs.....

My view, the technologies of learning to create fire and then metallurgical work, and the refining the pottery arts....is not science ...per say....

from a modern day perspective ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science



so we can argue over what is science and what is not.....

but i still would like to know what do you mean by...


Aemilius wrote: Buddha defined Dharma as "that which is true", or just "the Truth".
Thus it is the same as the the aim of science, i.e. to find the objective truth.
Because there was Buddha there is now science. It is a logical consequence, a natural development of Buddha's teaching.
Here is something about the Philosophy of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science

Because there was Buddha there is now science. It is a logical consequence, a natural development of Buddha's teaching.



to be honest now that i read this again ...and again....

i could say that ...no i can't ...there is a thought trying to come to the surface.....

the thought ...it doesn't develop for the statement needs to be explained.....

i don't want to just say it's simply not true...for you might have a higher meaning that is eluding me....


it makes for interesting thought....that for me....just doesn't mature...into a thought....lol....


What I intend is that Shakyamuni formulated his discoveries in an objective manner, he was trying to be objective and impartial as far as possible. This endeavour, this purpose, should be evident if you read through the suttas and sutras of the Tripitaka.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:43 pm

Aemilius, thats not what you i thought you meant when you said.
Because there was Buddha there is now science. It is a logical consequence, a natural development of Buddha's teaching.

I apologize.

For some , including me i look at Tantra as a science...others and i bet some scientists think it something the mentally ill do.
a mental aberration , hallucinatory hysteria etc....

The Tulku once said that the creators, Buddhas, Shiva , Brahma, the enlightened ones are the ones responsible for the beauty in samsara..He asked not to get hung up on labels, but the enlightened ones are the ones responsible for the beauty of the trees , the mountains and their grandness, the beautiful sunsets....without them it would be all ugly and horrible....


So maybe in that light i can see your statement i keep hounding at...as yes ..maybe all the good science produces is due to the Buddha and the enlightened ones...giving way to healthier and better lifestyles....
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby muni » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:07 am

Aemilius wrote:We do not grasp at words or letters, ? Like the word "science" or the letters S,C,I, E & N ?
Words are impermanent, and letters are impermanent too.
Words are dependently arising phenomena, and letters are dependently existent too,
hence they are without permanence and without true reality.
This is explained in the Lankavatara Sutra, where the example is the word "Buddha", and the letters B, U, D, Dh & A.


As Thich Nhat Hanh says: "to let go the word Buddha in order to reveal Buddha. If not we remain in dimension of to be-not to be, rebirth-death".

when we use words, this means the words are not there. Without mind, there is no word. then where is the problem?
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby muni » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:32 am

Dharma is continuous and inexorable, while Time is but an illusion. The Knot of Infinity symbolizes that truth. The search for enlightenment need not mean giving up worldly responsibilities. The Knot is a representation of the Buddha’s teaching that religious thought and material life are intertwined.

The Infinite Knot is a line without a beginning or end that radiates both calm and movement. It represents the idea that everything in this world in interconnected.
It is also symbolic of the Buddha’s infinite compassion. Originally, this symbol was associated with Vishnu and his abiding love for his consort Lakshmi, goddess of wealth. You can find the endless knot symbol on various inspirational products such as endless knot pendant, endless knot decor and more

http://www.buddhagroove.net/2009/09/end ... dhism.html
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