Cops raid at the Karmapas office

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Dhondrub » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 pm

For the pro HH- Karmapa-OTD hooligans among us.

There is a statement from Kagyuoffice.org on what to do:

With the tremendous outpouring of messages of support from people around the world wishing to contribute positively to the current situation, His Holiness the Karmapa has advised the international Dharma centers, students and supporters around the world that the following practices would be good to do in the current situation:

Prayers to the 21 Taras, Seven-Limb Supplication to Padmasambhava,Dharma Protector Practice, such as Mahakala and others.
His Holiness also mentioned that if people wish to contact other Dharma friends from other centers in their area -- not only Karma Kagyu, but practitioners of all schools of Tibetan Buddhism - and join with them to do group practice sessions together, that would also be very auspicious.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:57 pm

Dhondrub wrote:For the pro HH- Karmapa-OTD hooligans among us.

There is a statement from Kagyuoffice.org on what to do:

With the tremendous outpouring of messages of support from people around the world wishing to contribute positively to the current situation, His Holiness the Karmapa has advised the international Dharma centers, students and supporters around the world that the following practices would be good to do in the current situation:

Prayers to the 21 Taras, Seven-Limb Supplication to Padmasambhava,Dharma Protector Practice, such as Mahakala and others.
His Holiness also mentioned that if people wish to contact other Dharma friends from other centers in their area -- not only Karma Kagyu, but practitioners of all schools of Tibetan Buddhism - and join with them to do group practice sessions together, that would also be very auspicious.


Hooligans? Nobody knows the full facts yet, so why use such words as if someone had accused you of something?

This advice has already been posted on the thread. ;)

As i said the last time it was posted, Mahakala practice would be a good idea, but I would be wishing for compassion for all those affected, not just one man. :)
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:51 pm

heart wrote:Well the Karmapa issue do bring out the hooligans in the best of us, so why not in you?
Probably coz I don't give a rats arse about the institutions because the only thing about the Kagyu lineage that truly concerns me are its practices (half of which come from the Nyingmas anyway).
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:05 am

Hey everyone just relax.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:07 am

It's a good thing those institutions have survived, eh, Greg? Otherwise it's doubtful you'd even have access to the teachings.


:thinking:
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:57 am

Tilopa wrote:Hey everyone just relax.
Dear Tilopa I can assure that I am 100% relaxed, I just expressed myself that way to get a point across clearly! I don't identify with the institutions and personalities enough for the issue to cause me any tension. I've never (in this lifetime) been a "fan club" member and aren't about to start now. :D
conebeckham wrote:It's a good thing those institutions have survived, eh, Greg? Otherwise it's doubtful you'd even have access to the teachings. :thinking:
It's a good thing the teachings and practices were stainless and perfect otherwise the institutions would not have survived! :tongue:

For example the Moghul destruction of Buddhist (and "Hindu" for that matter) institutions (Nalanda for example) did not lead to the destruction of Buddhism and "Hinduism" now did it? Why? Because both were kept alive by practitioners. You can have the fanciest institutions, structures, texts, statues, icons and the like (take, for example, Angor in Cambodia, the Bamiyan Buddhas, what's that temple complex in Burma called?, etc...) but without practitioners... :shrug:

And that's been my point all along in this thread: Institutions need practitioners BUT practitioners do not need institutions.

I think that Islam is a perfect example of this reality.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Dhondrub » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:22 pm

Yeshe wrote:
Dhondrub wrote:For the pro HH- Karmapa-OTD hooligans among us.

There is a statement from Kagyuoffice.org on what to do:

With the tremendous outpouring of messages of support from people around the world wishing to contribute positively to the current situation, His Holiness the Karmapa has advised the international Dharma centers, students and supporters around the world that the following practices would be good to do in the current situation:

Prayers to the 21 Taras, Seven-Limb Supplication to Padmasambhava,Dharma Protector Practice, such as Mahakala and others.
His Holiness also mentioned that if people wish to contact other Dharma friends from other centers in their area -- not only Karma Kagyu, but practitioners of all schools of Tibetan Buddhism - and join with them to do group practice sessions together, that would also be very auspicious.


Hooligans? Nobody knows the full facts yet, so why use such words as if someone had accused you of something?

This advice has already been posted on the thread. ;)

As i said the last time it was posted, Mahakala practice would be a good idea, but I would be wishing for compassion for all those affected, not just one man. :)


??? i was referring tongue in cheek to Magnus comment. I should have posted :smile: so you dont feel offended.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby J-Bird » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:25 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Tilopa wrote:Hey everyone just relax.
Dear Tilopa I can assure that I am 100% relaxed, I just expressed myself that way to get a point across clearly! I don't identify with the institutions and personalities enough for the issue to cause me any tension. I've never (in this lifetime) been a "fan club" member and aren't about to start now. :D
conebeckham wrote:It's a good thing those institutions have survived, eh, Greg? Otherwise it's doubtful you'd even have access to the teachings. :thinking:
It's a good thing the teachings and practices were stainless and perfect otherwise the institutions would not have survived! :tongue:

For example the Moghul destruction of Buddhist (and "Hindu" for that matter) institutions (Nalanda for example) did not lead to the destruction of Buddhism and "Hinduism" now did it? Why? Because both were kept alive by practitioners. You can have the fanciest institutions, structures, texts, statues, icons and the like (take, for example, Angor in Cambodia, the Bamiyan Buddhas, what's that temple complex in Burma called?, etc...) but without practitioners... :shrug:

And that's been my point all along in this thread: Institutions need practitioners BUT practitioners do not need institutions.

I think that Islam is a perfect example of this reality.
:namaste:

Greg,
I am sorry man but I just dont see the logic in your position here.....still.
Especially on the "Institutions needs practitioners BUT practitioners do not need institutions"

The fact that there are people, practicing a similar set of instructions, passed down generation to generation is by default an institution.
See Websters Dictionary: "Institution: a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture"
And as Cone has pointed out, it takes an institution (as defined above), to maintain the lineage. You cannot have a pure transmission today, without the institutionalization of that transmission throughout history.

And PS.....your remarks earlier about half of the Karma Kagyu transmissions coming from Nyingma sources leads me to believe that you yourself have been somewhat institutionalized.
In reality I think we all have in our practice. I guess it just matter that much to me.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:26 am

Latest from Karmapa's office...
Press Release by Karmapa Office of Administration

Dharamsala, Feb 11, 2011:

This afternoon, the Himachal Pradesh chief secretary Rajwant Sadhu, told
reporters that, "there is no involvement of the Karmapa. We have reasons to
believe that some donations came for the monastery and the Karmapa has nothing
to do with that. Monastery functionaries were managing the affairs."

(In the pic: The three day Prayer meet in Delhi came to an end today with candle
march)

The chief secretary was also quoted as saying; "The Karmapa is a religious head
and has followers across the world. We respect their religious activities. We
don't interfere in any religious affairs. We have full respect for their
religious activities and are in no way intending curbing them in any form or
manner as also we are aware of the fact that the Karmapa is not involved in any
monetary activities or shady benami land deals."

The Karmapa Office of Administration is grateful to the Indian authorities for
investigating the case thoroughly and bringing the truth to the forefront. This
fully confirms the confidence His Holiness the Karmapa has himself expressed
from the very beginning in the Indian judicial system. We are glad the
investigation has put to rest the unfounded rumors that had been circulating. We
are very thankful for all the support that has come pouring in from all over
India, across the Himalayas and all corners of the world.

Spokesperson
Deki Chungyalpa
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:48 am

conebeckham wrote:Latest from Karmapa's office...
Press Release by Karmapa Office of Administration

Dharamsala, Feb 11, 2011:

This afternoon, the Himachal Pradesh chief secretary Rajwant Sadhu, told
reporters that, "there is no involvement of the Karmapa. We have reasons to
believe that some donations came for the monastery and the Karmapa has nothing
to do with that. Monastery functionaries were managing the affairs."

(In the pic: The three day Prayer meet in Delhi came to an end today with candle
march)

The chief secretary was also quoted as saying; "The Karmapa is a religious head
and has followers across the world. We respect their religious activities. We
don't interfere in any religious affairs. We have full respect for their
religious activities and are in no way intending curbing them in any form or
manner as also we are aware of the fact that the Karmapa is not involved in any
monetary activities or shady benami land deals."

The Karmapa Office of Administration is grateful to the Indian authorities for
investigating the case thoroughly and bringing the truth to the forefront. This
fully confirms the confidence His Holiness the Karmapa has himself expressed
from the very beginning in the Indian judicial system. We are glad the
investigation has put to rest the unfounded rumors that had been circulating. We
are very thankful for all the support that has come pouring in from all over
India, across the Himalayas and all corners of the world.

Spokesperson
Deki Chungyalpa


As if there was ever any doubt. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:49 am

Tilopa wrote:As if there was ever any doubt. :twothumbsup:


There most certainly is very considerable doubt. It seems this person was entirely incorrect to say the Karmapa was in the clear:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... rmapa.html

In any case, I believe it was Orgyen Thinley's wish for everybody to wait for the investigation to run its course and not speculate or worry about the outcome. His involvement with China will be decided by the Indian courts on the basis of the evidence.
Last edited by sherabpa on Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:01 am

Dear J-Bird,
If we define institutions in the Webster sense then yes, it seems, that we do "need" institutions. Don't get me wrong, I am not against organisation, the problem I have is with ORGANISATIONS (or forms of organisation, to be more exact). You see the institution of the Karma Kagyu, or the organisation that calls itself the Karma Kagyu, is currently the source of its own demise. Its very structure allows it to be destroyed. The more you centralise power, money, land etc... the higher the possibility that somebody will want to grab it all. The more the practices are defined by the structure the higher the possibility of identification with the structure rather than a recognition of the efficacy of the practices: Mahamudra is ours, Dzogchen is not ours. Mahakala is our protector, Yamantaka is their protector. Etc... And suddenly instead of looking at what unites us (the practices) we look for (and even form) differences that divide us (the institutions): Whose side are you on? HHGK UTD or HHGK TTD? Situpa or Sharmapa? China or Tibet? Etc... So it seems to me that when we use the word institution we mean much more than what the definition would lead us to believe.

But you may say that it is not the institution that is to blame but humans and their need to grasp to something in order to identify. Yes and no. On the one hand the institutions themselves are problematic (as we quite clearly can see) and on the other hand humans (or their actions) are problematic. I guess that's why the Buddha preached renunciation. I guess that's why he limited the personal possessions of a monk to the bare essentials for survival. I guess that's why ascetic practices were deemed important.
J-Bird wrote:I am sorry man but I just dont see the logic in your position here.....still. Especially on the "Institutions needs practitioners BUT practitioners do not need institutions"
Again I would draw your attention to the Kagyu lineage BEFORE Gampopa. You will find that all those Mahasiddhas did not need all the organisational and physical structures, that we now deem necessary, in order for them to reach enlightenment. Many of the Mahasiddha purposefully abandoned them in order to be able to truly practice.
And as Cone has pointed out, it takes an institution ... to maintain the lineage. You cannot have a pure transmission today, without the institutionalization of that transmission throughout history.
Hog wash. Unless, of course, you consider the Mahasiddha lineage as an institution. I guess that according to Webster you could. But I am pretty sure of what Tilopa would have done to you if you approached him with this line of thought!
And PS.....your remarks earlier about half of the Karma Kagyu transmissions coming from Nyingma sources leads me to believe that you yourself have been somewhat institutionalized. In reality I think we all have in our practice. I guess it just matter that much to me.
Of course we have all been institutionalized to a degree. Currently it is (almost) unavoidable if one wants access to the practices. But I brought up this reality in order to highlight the underlying lack of solidity that exists even in that colossus of an institution: the Karma Kagyu.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:05 am

sherabpa wrote:
Tilopa wrote:As if there was ever any doubt. :twothumbsup:


There most certainly is very considerable doubt. It seems this person was entirely incorrect to say the Karmapa was in the clear:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... rmapa.html

There's no doubt just the usual confusion, lies and deliberate obfuscation that always accompanies stories like this. Believe anything you read in an Indian newspaper or magazine at your own peril - journalists regularly and with total impunity write the most incredible nonsense you can imagine.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:23 am

Tilopa wrote:There's no doubt just the usual confusion, lies and deliberate obfuscation that always accompanies stories like this. Believe anything you read in an Indian newspaper or magazine at your own peril - journalists regularly and with total impunity write the most incredible nonsense you can imagine.


Are you saying that the reports that Himachal Pradesh Chief Minister Prem Kumar Dhumal overruled his deputy are lies?

We've been here before even in this thread. The Times of India and Hindustan times are perfectly decent newspapers, as are many others. Indians are not so stupid or ignorant that they are incapable of having decent journalism.

You're perfectly entitled not to entertain doubts about Orgyen Thinley. Others don't share your view. Lets wait and see what happens.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:13 pm

We are "seeing what happens."

In the main, what's happening is an Indian police beauracracy that doesn't know it's own position, or doesn't have a consistent internal position, a media that is quick to print anything, including continued allegations about Chinese affiliation, and not much in the way of facts.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Tilopa » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:05 pm

sherabpa wrote:We've been here before even in this thread. The Times of India and Hindustan times are perfectly decent newspapers, as are many others. Indians are not so stupid or ignorant that they are incapable of having decent journalism.

Not incapable but it's rare. And as anyone who has lived in India will tell you even reputable newspapers often publish stories that are later proved to be total fabrications.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:20 pm

Tashi delek, :)

Want to add some usefull informations which is known by us allready , i guess.
It is written by a French reporter Cluade Arpiand has an objective point of view like it should be.

Must underline the status of the Tibetans in India where they are seen as refugees or guests.
Further does the Bon own in HP / India a huge piece of land, but that was only rented untill 2050 i guess, so it is also no property.
We are fighting here also for our rights to get it all on name.......
So the status of Tibetans is not clear at all in India and besides that India wants to eat a peace of the Chinese booming cacke.
Also are the Chinese planning some politics in case the Dalai Lama will die.
So this politics, diplomacy and strategy will not end even not outside Tibet as well inside Tibet, karma?

Best wishes for our individual practice.
Kalden Yungdrung



The Karmapa mystery
What's the truth behind the allegations against Ugyen Trinley Dorje? Is the 17th Karmapa a victim of high intrigue in his monastery? writes Claude Arpi.



It has not been easy to be Ugyen Trinley Dorje, the 17th Karmapa. The previous Karmapa, the 16th of the lineage, who had taken refuge in Sikkim in 1959, was one of the most revered Lamas of his generation. A great yogi, he impressed all those who approached him.



When he passed away in 1981, he left his monastery of Rumtek in Sikkim, as well as hundreds of Dharma Centres in India and abroad, in the hands of four regents who were to provide spiritual guidance to the Karmapa’s followers. When Situ Rinpoche, one of the regents, discovered a ‘letter of prediction’ said to have been written by the old Karmapa prophesying his rebirth in eastern Tibet and giving the time of birth and the name of his parents, a dispute erupted between Situ and another regent, Shamar, who was bidding for someone else.



The bitterness between the Rumtek regents took an ugly turn in 1992-93, when a petition was filed in the Sikkim High Court praying for an injunction to stop the recognition of the 17th Karmapa. More infighting was reported in 1994, when Shamar enthroned his candidate, Thagye Dorjee.



In the meantime, after conducting the necessary tests, the Dalai Lama gave his seal of approval to Ugyen Trinley Dorje, the boy found by Situ. Soon after, the Communist leadership in Beijing also decided to recognise the boy still living in Tibet. It was the first time in the history of the Communist regime that a ‘reincarnation’ (or ‘Living Buddha’ for Beijing) was officially recognised.



The issue got further complicated in January 2000 when the 15-year-old Karmapa unexpectedly reached Dharamsala after crossing several Himalayan passes in the midst of winter. At that time, many believed that he had been ‘planted’ by the Chinese intelligence agencies to create confusion over the ‘Sikkim issue’ (Beijing agreed to ‘recognise’ the State as a part of India only in 2003). Probably fuelled by the Shamar group, suspicions have remained since then in the minds of a few Indian officials.



On January 26, the story took a new twist when Rs 1 crore in cash was found in a vehicle intercepted in Una district of Himachal Pradesh. A Dharamsala-based businessman KP Bhardwaj was arrested for an alleged illegal land deal. Subsequently, the Himachal Pradesh Police seized Rs 5 crore in foreign and Indian currency (including some Chinese Yuans) from a room of the Gyuto Monastery, the seat of Ugyen Trinley Dorje, near Dharamsala.



The Office of the Lama confirmed the seizure: “This sum represents unsolicited donations that have been made by the followers of His Holiness the Karmapa from around the world to enable the substantial social and spiritual programmes of the Karma Kagyu order.” It was further explained: “The Karmae Garchen Trust has sought to purchase land and build a new residence and monastery since 2007. When the Trust identified suitable land in 2010, it informed the office of the District Collector of Dharamsala and sought their approval to proceed with the purchase.”



A ‘no-objection certificate’ from the Town and Country Planning Department of the Himachal Pradesh Government was apparently obtained. The problem is that it is difficult for non-State subjects to ‘legally’ purchase land in the area. It is probably why Mr PK Dhumal, the Himachal Pradesh Chief Minister raised the Karmapa issue with the Prime Minister during the recent Chief Ministers’ Conference on Internal Security: “I have asked the Prime Minister and the Home Minister to clarify whether the Tibetans are our guests or refugees.”



According to the Office of the Karmapa, an application was sent in 2002 to the Home Ministry for an account under the Foreign Contribution Regulation Act; unfortunately it has not been granted as yet. Karmapa, a bright and intelligent young Lama, is today entangled in two issues: The large amount of foreign currency found in his monastery and the fact that he has been accused of being a Chinese ‘agent’.



The second accusation seems unwarranted, but has unfortunately been going around. As many monks still come from Tibet, there could be some moles reporting the moves of the young Lama to China, but it does not mean that he is an agent or influenced by such people. There is also the possibility of the other postulant to the Karmapas’ throne having informers inside the Lama’s establishment. Who tipped off the police about the ‘unaccounted’ cash?



But if one looks deeper into the issue, who is benefitting from all these charges (frivolous for spying and probably right for poor accounting)? It is the Chinese Government. The last thing Beijing wants today is to see the Dalai Lama designate a ‘spiritual’ successor before he leaves this world. Beijing has been planning for decades for the Dalai Lama’s succession.



The leadership in Beijing did not foresee that the boy had his own mind and that he would escape to India and take refuge close to the Dalai Lama. Now if the Dalai Lama would tomorrow nominate two or three ‘spiritual’ regents, it would be a great blow for Beijing; their plans to have a docile ‘Living Buddha’ in their hands (like their present puppet Panchen Lama) would be completely spoiled.



It is, therefore, clear that China is the first to benefit from the present messy situation in Dharamsala, particularly from the not-properly-accounted-for cash recovered from the Gyuto monastery. It is probably why the Dalai Lama has said that in the interest of all, a proper inquiry should be conducted. And if necessary, rectifications should be made.



In the meantime, a Tibetan delegation met the Chief Minister who asked them to stop their demonstrations in favour of the Karmapa: “The agencies are doing their job and should instead be cooperated with to find the truth,” said Mr Dhumal. But the time has perhaps come for his Government to find a solution to 50-year-old presence of some 30,000 Tibetans who should be able to enjoy the same facilities as other Himachalis, provided they abide by national and local laws.



The Karmapa’s immediate task is to concentrate his energy in educating his monks about the intricacies of Indian laws and to be fastidious about the financial administration of his monastery. This is crucial if he wants to clear the doubts raised by security agencies. He should not hesitate to ask either the Union or the State Government to bring to his notice any wrong-doings by his followers or staff and he should himself take severe action if such things occur. Let us hope also that he continues his wonderful work on the conservation of the environment of the Himalayas.





About the author: Claude Arpi is a French-born author, journalist, historian and tibetologist. He is the author of The Fate of Tibet: When Big Insects Eat Small Insects (Har-Anand Publications, New Delhi, 1999) and has to his credits several articles on Tibet, China, India and Indo-French relations.
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby muni » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:34 pm

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:25 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Want to add some usefull informations which is known by us allready , i guess.
It is written by a French reporter Cluade Arpiand has an objective point of view like it should be.
That is a useful and unbiased article, only one point is not 100% valid.
In the meantime, after conducting the necessary tests, the Dalai Lama gave his seal of approval to Ugyen Trinley Dorje, the boy found by Situ.
There are no "necessary tests" that HH the Dalai Lama could conduct in order to ascertain which of the candidates is the suitable one because choosing the "correct" Karmapa is not, and never has been, a decision to be made by HHDL. It is a decision that, up until the 17th Karmapa, was made by the highest ranking regent which happens to be alive when the choice was to be made. What that (basically) means is that the decision and tests are made by the Sharmapa then, if the Sharmapa is not alive, the Situpa, then the Gyaltsab tulku..., then the Kongtrul tulku..., ad nauseum... It was never a democratic or consensus decision and often a cloak and dagger affair.

HHDL never had a direct say in the process as the Karma Kagyu lineage were always a large and independent spiritual tradition whereas HHDL was a more political position under the influence of the Gelug (who tended to be a smaller, but more politically powerful group). This, of course, until recently guaranteed the independence of the Kagyu tradition and the more spiritual role of the Karmapa.
:namaste:
PS He cracks out his umbrella in anticipation of a rain (nay, a veritable downpour) of projections.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby justsit » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:59 pm

No rain of projections, greg, just rain of compassion. We all suffer from our delusions.
:anjali:


Edit typo.
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