Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Whether you're exploring Buddhism for the first time or you're already on the path, feel free to ask questions of any kind here.

Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:32 am

CSEe wrote:Hi laura , is hard for me to explain my view , so I hope you could try since my english is not good .
You see , to me " awareness" is a measurement of how much we understand Buddha but " knowledge" in our current world is measurement of knowning .
Is two different topic .
As from my "awareness" I am aware that I am sincere of my intention of learning here but my action might lead you to think I am ego .
Your remarks infact provide me " knowledge" of my action , the information that maybe not known to me .
For that information , I should feel glad of your kindness / concern for my own betterment .
In Buddha , we can only "see" our self from others but know ourself from our own "awareness"

That is my point when I say all books / texts should only limited as knowledge but NOT referral to Buddha .
All kind of info / feedbacks is "knowledge" , only by self exploration free from ego we will gain our awareness...


Yes CSEe, I think I understand that you don't wish to study and absorb the teachings of the Buddha in that way. Nor do you wish to listen to lectures from learned people. Perhaps you have had negative experiences, I don't know. I hope that's not the case. That's why I've suggested in the past that you might enjoy a light form of meditation. It can be very investigative and a way to discover as we explore this universe called the mind. It could heighten your awareness. It's merely a suggestion from a humble practitioner who is also on the path.

Kind wishes,
Laura
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:05 am

CSEe wrote:Hi laura , is hard for me to explain my view , so I hope you could try since my english is not good .


Hi CSEe, where are you from? What is your native language?
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby ground » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:38 am

This imprisonment in one's tainted vision is a strange thing. All that appears as if not compliant (with what?) cannot be seen. But all that appears may just be one's own taints. Isn't it wondrous that there can be communication at all? :D

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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby CSEe » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:54 am

[quote="Ngawang Drolma"][quote="CSEe"]

Laura said:-
"Yes CSEe, I think I understand that you don't wish to study and absorb the teachings of the Buddha in that way. Nor do you wish to listen to lectures from learned people. Perhaps you have had negative experiences, I don't know. I hope that's not the case. That's why I've suggested in the past that you might enjoy a light form of meditation. It can be very investigative and a way to discover as we explore this universe called the mind. It could heighten your awareness. It's merely a suggestion from a humble practitioner who is also on the path."

Hi Laura , I had my way of understanding myself before I came to know buddha later I agrees and follow Siddharta's tips .
Meditation maybe is Siddharta own way of searching Buddha but I belief there are others countless method .
As I prefer to think while I drive , think while I looks at my koi fish that is also my own method .
Meditation I belief is very-very good infact my wife meditate every day .
But I at my current awareness refuse to belief that meditation is associated with Buddha , meditation is only limited as one of the trillions method in searching own awareness .
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby CSEe » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:56 am

Adamantine wrote:
CSEe wrote:Hi laura , is hard for me to explain my view , so I hope you could try since my english is not good .


Hi CSEe, where are you from? What is your native language?


I am Chinese born in Malaysia but sadly does not read or write chinese .
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Re: What / who is Buddha / Siddharta ?

Postby kirtu » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:19 pm

CSEe wrote:
kirtu wrote:
CSEe wrote:So who is Siddharta , lets share from own awareness / common sense ok .


Why do you think that common sense is useful? Or valid?

Here is a version of Siddhartha's life before and after his enlightenment. Why do you think it isn't valid?

Kirt


In Buddha , I can only know my self from my awareness but see myself from how other might feel of me . As I am aware that I am sincere here seeking better awareness but my action might lead to other believing I am ego , but I must aware of my intention but perhaps change my action .
Common sense is a part from my own awareness , is from me not from some body else . In all judgement I must aware and act according to my common sense .
In search of Buddha , if we see what we wish to see , hear what we wish to hear ,believe
what others think is right without concerning our awareness , we will always see our self or even worst see others not Buddha .
So is that fit your common sense ?


Hello CSEe -

The problem with common sense is that there are many true things are are counter-intuitive. This is most commonly seen in mundane topics like mathematics (mathematics has lots of true results that are counter to common sense - for example many people don't find it intuitive that between any two points on a number line there are an infinite number of decimal numbers [this isn't true for integers of course] - another example is that there are infinite sets of infinite things but given any two infinite sets of numbers one of them can be smaller or larger than the other [one of the sets can have more elements in it than the other set even though both of them are infinite]).

Then in history and society there are numerous examples of common sense things that are false: people of particular origins or races or religions are stupid, or inferior for example [this was the determining principle of Germany and Japan and much of Europe in the 30's and 40's and unleashed a real hell on Earth - and it was also the determining principle of American society until recently and resulted in the murder of countless thousands maybe as high as a few million people).

Common sense needs to be tested and verified and in most cases just rests on simple observations that people have made that they then take as unquestioned truth. But people are highly influenced by their emotions and have a hard time making rational decisions.

So I am not a fan of common sense by itself.

Common sense and awareness are different but you can only see this for yourself (usually) as a result of meditation. But many people if they just meditate on their own end up reinforcing their own thoughts.

Thoughts and awareness are also different but again most people can't see this unless they meditate.

You may not be aware of it (or maybe you are) but your idea of refined energy leading to Buddhahood in some way is a Taoist idea (although they don't use the term Buddhhood). This refinement is real (it has real results) but IMO is limited.

If your awareness is filled with love and kindness is this getting closer to Buddhahood in your view? If you help other beings is this getting closer to Buddhhood.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby kirtu » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:29 pm

CSEe wrote:Meditation maybe is Siddharta own way of searching Buddha but I belief there are others countless method .
As I prefer to think while I drive , think while I looks at my koi fish that is also my own method .
Meditation I belief is very-very good infact my wife meditate every day .
But I at my current awareness refuse to belief that meditation is associated with Buddha , meditation is only limited as one of the trillions method in searching own awareness .


This is true. Siddharta taught innumerable methods to different people. But it's important to understand that the people didn't discover them on their own. In fact we can have insight into enlightened living but generally our minds will tend to lead us in the wrong direction. This is why Siddharta is the ultimate guide - once he became enlightened his mind was perfectly pure and flawless.

In fact the main method that Siddharta taught was following morality flawlessly - he did not teach meditation as the primary method for all people. Following morality and ethics was the primary method for all people. And in fact just following ethics and morality by itself can eventually lead one to enlightenment.

Another way is just compassionate thought and compassionate speech and compassionate action as a persons whole life. This will also lead a person eventually (and actually very rapidly) to enlightenment.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: What / who is Buddha / Siddharta ?

Postby CSEe » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:13 pm

Dear Kirt , sorry if my views of what I learn from reading your reply is wrong .
I am of the opinion perhaps you are looking at common sense in term of seeking KNOWLEDGE .
In search of Buddha knowledge is perhaps only tiny part of gaining awareness .
I am saying common sense from my own "AWARENESS" not common sense on KNOWLEDGE .
In knowledge , common sense can be challange by fact / law or belief to determine of right or wrong but in awareness , our own common sense WILL NEVER BE WRONG .
In search of Buddha we will never "do right" or "do wrong" becouse in Buddha there are NO RIGHT or WRONG .In search of Buddha if I do wrong is becouse of my awareness is perhaps low , so when I became " wiser" - move to higher awareness I will understand my previous action is wrong .
In Buddha we do wrong / bad / evil simpily becouse WE STILL NOT AWARE . Just like I cant blame a 3 years old boy puring water on my computer simpily he still do not understand .

In Siddharta search , yes I belief good is leading to Buddha and bad will delay our purification process towards Buddha .
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby alasdairyee » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:24 pm

CSEe,

Here's some readings for your reference, http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/guide.htm (Don't worry, from what I read, I don't think these teachings are too hard to understand.) Might help you understand things from a different perspective, you don't have to follow them, but maybe just spend some free time reading that. May you attain bodhi swiftly _/\_

Namo Amituofo!
_/\_


Plwk, Amituofo! :oops: Wrong use of buddha term, should be pratyekabuddha instead of samyaksambuddha, thanks for the correction. :D , agree completely with the rest of what you said.

plwk wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, from what I see, you seem like you wish to be a Samyaksambuddha. Someone whos discovers the dhamma without refering to books or studies that the buddha has already taught us.
Just a thought...
Me thinks this may be, just may be a case of choosing something near similar to the Pratyekabuddha path, only that in his case, the difference is the period and conditions that he is in right now, there is a Samyak Sambuddha's Teachings, Sakyamuni Buddha's, still intact and available [whereas, in the actual case of a pratyekabuddha, there are no such conditions and they are self-enlightened without a teacher/guide or reference, although they may not teach directly like a Samyak Sambuddha but through other more subtle and indirect ways] but still chooses to find the Path on his own accord...
I know some who are like that and encourage them to seek the Path earnestly, although it may just mean a longer route and perhaps will eventually get there but I keep telling myself, who am I to decide for them, what or when to accept, I recall my own journey from Christianity and know how hard it has been, this is the beautiful hope in the Buddha Dharma, no one decides the path of liberation or perdition other than oneself in the end analysis.
I rejoice for him that he can still have this awareness and seemingly that previous Dharmic affinities may just be beginning to take ground here and now.
But who knows? Causes and conditions can swiftly change and these kind of people may experience powerful changes and for all you know, he may even get it earlier than myself! Remember the Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng on hearing one verse from the Diamond Cutter Sutra or even what people in his time write off as a hopeless murderer, Angulimala? And I wish liberation for him and all others...It's all in their own hands isn't it?


Namo Amituofo!
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Re: What / who is Buddha / Siddharta ?

Postby kirtu » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:27 pm

CSEe wrote:our own common sense WILL NEVER BE WRONG .


So however you conceive of common sense for yourself - you have deified your own common sense.

How about Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot's common sense?

In search of Buddha we will never "do right" or "do wrong" becouse in Buddha there are NO RIGHT or WRONG .


So I can kill a homeless person and that won't be wrong? Homeless people suffer terribly and anyway are worthless parasites on society. We have lots of homeless people in the West so it won't be a big loss. And they commit crime too!

So this wouldn't be wrong?

Some people have really advanced this view for real and don't see a problem with it. And it comes from their common sense.

In search of Buddha if I do wrong is becouse of my awareness is perhaps low


So you can do wrong things?

, so when I became " wiser" - move to higher awareness I will understand my previous action is wrong .


This is why Shakyamuni Buiddha gave us the practice of morality. He wanted people to advance quickly to this level of awareness and also to not suffer the consequences of further bad actions.

In Siddharta search , yes I belief good is leading to Buddha and bad will delay our purification process towards Buddha .


How can you determine good and bad? I grew up in a society that says attacking or killing people under some circumstances is a positive action. Historically there are many societies like this. If you leave this to "common sense" then many bad actions could be committed.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby CSEe » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:31 pm

Kirt said:-
This is true. Siddharta taught innumerable methods to different people. But it's important to understand that the people didn't discover them on their own. In fact we can have insight into enlightened living but generally our minds will tend to lead us in the wrong direction. This is why Siddharta is the ultimate guide - once he became enlightened his mind was perfectly pure and flawless.

In fact the main method that Siddharta taught was following morality flawlessly - he did not teach meditation as the primary method for all people. Following morality and ethics was the primary method for all people. And in fact just following ethics and morality by itself can eventually lead one to enlightenment.

Another way is just compassionate thought and compassionate speech and compassionate action as a persons whole life. This will also lead a person eventually (and actually very rapidly) to enlightenment.

CSEe reply as folllow :-

Mr Siddharta is a great man that introduced this energy to human , he might have many source / style which I might take billions of light years to even understand . SO why we have to follow him ?
he maybe driving a "ferrari" and able to drive 1000 km per hour but I am driving old local car .....but I cannot follow his speed or his driving , I will met accident and die or my car will break into pieces .

Why dont we look into ourself and search instead of looking at him and '"wonder".
WE WILL NEVER FIND BUDDHA IF WE KEEP FOLLOW SIDDHARTA .....WE ARE ACTUALLY SEEING HIS SHADOW .
IF WE LOOKING INSIDE OUR MIND WE MIGHT SEE WHAT HE SAW . But in my current awareness even if I see what he saw , I belief I will still have plenty of desire for good and bad , visit Budfdhish site and also porn site ...I am still FULL OF RUBBISH.
My message is WHY FOLLOW A GREAT MAN WALK IF WE KNOW HE IS GREAT , why dont we start walking in our own style .
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby kirtu » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:40 pm

I think plwk brought up Anguilimala - he was actually taught by a bad teacher so murder people and take a finger from them and braid them into a necklace. Once he had killed 1000 people he had been taught that he would attain enlightenment (or that his teacher had tricked him in order to kill him for one of several reasons).

So did the teacher's common sense fail him? The teacher did have lots of knowledge. How about Anguilimala's common sense? It looks like Anguilimala's common sense failed him completely. Anguilimala had some knowledge but this is not one of his predominate traits recorded in the teachings.

Nonetheless when Anguilimala met Shakyamuni Buddha Anguilimala was transformed.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby kirtu » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:47 pm

CSEe wrote: But in my current awareness even if I see what he saw , I belief I will still have plenty of desire for good and bad , visit Budfdhish site and also porn site ...I am still FULL OF RUBBISH.
My message is WHY FOLLOW A GREAT MAN WALK IF WE KNOW HE IS GREAT , why dont we start walking in our own style .


See - walking your own style you are still full of rubbish and are visiting Buddhist sites and porn sites.

So your own style isn't really working.

In fact changing mind habits is very difficult. Shakyamuni Buddha pointed us in the right direction and we can follow his flawless directions and remove the rubbish from our hearts, minds and actions.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:52 pm

CSEe has been trolling us here the whole time. The amount of patience I've seen from members here is impressive.
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby CSEe » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:58 pm

quote="kirtu"]
CSEe wrote: But in my current awareness even if I see what he saw , I belief I will still have plenty of desire for good and bad , visit Budfdhish site and also porn site ...I am still FULL OF RUBBISH.
My message is WHY FOLLOW A GREAT MAN WALK IF WE KNOW HE IS GREAT , why dont we start walking in our own style .


See - walking your own style you are still full of rubbish and are visiting Buddhist sites and porn sites.

So your own style isn't really working.

In fact changing mind habits is very difficult. Shakyamuni Buddha pointed us in the right direction and we can follow his flawless directions and remove the rubbish from our hearts, minds and actions.

Kirt[/quote]

Hi Kirk , if comparing myself to what I wish to be in Buddha is TOO-TOO FAR..... .
and further more we are not discssing about my life...brother....we are discussing buddhism
I might see it , know it but to be "in" it maybe need trillions of purification process , but understand it helps .
In search of Buddha , we are what we want to be and not more than what we wish to be .
Boss....too great la for me when I see sexy girl infront of me ....Buddha still can wait la ...... But knowing what is Buddha helps in my purification process maybe I do not need trillions ...just need say 100?....I can only wish ok....
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby conebeckham » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:04 pm

My message is WHY FOLLOW A GREAT MAN WALK IF WE KNOW HE IS GREAT , why don't we start walking in our own style .


First, you have to have a destination to walk toward...but in this case, CSEe, you wouldn't even know this particular "destination" if Sakyamuni hadn't found it for us. If you do not believe that his "destination" is worth walking toward, that is fine, and no one ever forced anyone to believe that Sakyamuni's destination was "mandatory." You are free to walk in whatever direction you choose......

Second, if you agree that the destination is worth reaching, wouldn't it make sense to ask for directions from someone who had been there? We're all just a bunch of sentient beings wandering around on a big rock......there are countless ones of us who are walking somewhere, impelled by our own ideas, our own concepts, our own "self-reliance," our own Egos....and the vast majority of these countless ones will end up in a destination or location that is no better than the one they left behind. In many cases, it will be worse.

From reading your posts, it would seem to me that you feel you have found the answers you need, and that your destination is in sight, and that you have planned your path, your route. It is therefore only a matter of time as to whether you are successful in reaching your destination, and only then will you know if your destination is the same as Sakyamuni's. I cannot say what the outcome will be, and I wish you the best of luck.

But this is Dharma Wheel....a community of Buddhists, or those interested in Buddhism. We may define "Buddhism" as the "roadmap" Sakyamuni left behind, for the purpose of reaching his destination. We may all disagree on the directions--we may even have differing ideas about the qualities, location, and existence of the destination. We may prefer Google Maps Buddhism, or Mapquest Buddhism, or our-friend's-directions-scrawled-on-a-napkin Buddhism, or the Rand McNally Road Atlas Buddhism, or a GPS Device Buddhism..... But we all aspire to understand more, to become more familiar with our maps, and, for most of us, to somehow get closer to Sakyamuni's destination, maybe even to reach it.

If you feel that your own map leads to the same destination, that is fine. I think, personally, your map has some fine features, from what I've gathered, but I'm not convinced it will get us there in the end. In any case, it is going to be a difficult task for you to convince us to abandon our maps, which have, after all, been shown to be effective for other wanderers besides Sakyamuni, the map maker, and to adopt your map, which we have little faith in, or to somehow "make our own maps." Perhaps your time here would be better spent in doing some research on your own map, and determining whether the destination is the same as ours.
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby Tara » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:14 pm

conebeckham wrote:
First, you have to have a destination to walk toward...but in this case, CSEe, you wouldn't even know this particular "destination" if Sakyamuni hadn't found it for us. If you do not believe that his "destination" is worth walking toward, that is fine, and no one ever forced anyone to believe that Sakyamuni's destination was "mandatory." You are free to walk in whatever direction you choose......

Second, if you agree that the destination is worth reaching, wouldn't it make sense to ask for directions from someone who had been there? We're all just a bunch of sentient beings wandering around on a big rock......there are countless ones of us who are walking somewhere, impelled by our own ideas, our own concepts, our own "self-reliance," our own Egos....and the vast majority of these countless ones will end up in a destination or location that is no better than the one they left behind. In many cases, it will be worse.

From reading your posts, it would seem to me that you feel you have found the answers you need, and that your destination is in sight, and that you have planned your path, your route. It is therefore only a matter of time as to whether you are successful in reaching your destination, and only then will you know if your destination is the same as Sakyamuni's. I cannot say what the outcome will be, and I wish you the best of luck.

But this is Dharma Wheel....a community of Buddhists, or those interested in Buddhism. We may define "Buddhism" as the "roadmap" Sakyamuni left behind, for the purpose of reaching his destination. We may all disagree on the directions--we may even have differing ideas about the qualities, location, and existence of the destination. We may prefer Google Maps Buddhism, or Mapquest Buddhism, or our-friend's-directions-scrawled-on-a-napkin Buddhism, or the Rand McNally Road Atlas Buddhism, or a GPS Device Buddhism..... But we all aspire to understand more, to become more familiar with our maps, and, for most of us, to somehow get closer to Sakyamuni's destination, maybe even to reach it.

If you feel that your own map leads to the same destination, that is fine. I think, personally, your map has some fine features, from what I've gathered, but I'm not convinced it will get us there in the end. In any case, it is going to be a difficult task for you to convince us to abandon our maps, which have, after all, been shown to be effective for other wanderers besides Sakyamuni, the map maker, and to adopt your map, which we have little faith in, or to somehow "make our own maps." Perhaps your time here would be better spent in doing some research on your own map, and determining whether the destination is the same as ours.


:good:

Regards,
rt
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby alasdairyee » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:18 pm

:good:

hahahaha, he better not be trolling us. :evil:
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:34 pm

CSEe wrote:My message is WHY FOLLOW A GREAT MAN WALK IF WE KNOW HE IS GREAT , why dont we start walking in our own style .


We follow a great man because we aspire to achieve what he achieved. You are free to walk in your own style, but then why bother with learning Buddhism and the Buddha's teachings? We all have to do it for ourselves but it doesn't seem to me that you have interest in learning about the Buddha and what he had to share. Please just be honest with us, are you interested in explaining your own philosophies about life or are you interested in Buddhism?

:namaste:
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Re: Are we on the right track in learning Buddha

Postby Mr. G » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:29 pm

alasdairyee wrote:hahahaha, he better not be trolling us. :evil:


Actually I was kidding. :smile:

I really don't think he's trolling us. I just think he doesn't want to discuss Buddhism, but CSEeism.
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