The Book of Three Beliefs
The Book of Three Beliefs
Hi,
There is a text called "The Book of Three Beliefs", attributed to Tsongkhapa by Roach, in The Tibetan Book of Yoga.
Can anyone confirm the authenticity of the text? How come I never see Gelugpa lamas and Rinpoche teach the "Tibetan surya namaskar" exercise?
Thanks,
Rahula
There is a text called "The Book of Three Beliefs", attributed to Tsongkhapa by Roach, in The Tibetan Book of Yoga.
Can anyone confirm the authenticity of the text? How come I never see Gelugpa lamas and Rinpoche teach the "Tibetan surya namaskar" exercise?
Thanks,
Rahula
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
This might be his way of translating "The Three Principals of the Path" but I'm not sure as I haven't read the T B of Yoga and don't know the context. I've never heard of "The Book of Three Beliefs".rahula80 wrote:Hi,
There is a text called "The Book of Three Beliefs", attributed to Tsongkhapa by Roach, in The Tibetan Book of Yoga.
Can anyone confirm the authenticity of the text?
Physical yoga has never been part of the Tibetan tradition the way it is in the Indian/ Hindu systems and although there are some exercises taught for those practicing Tumo 'Salute to the Sun' isn't one of them. A long time ago Mr.Roach was quite orthodox but over the years he has become increasingly 'new age' in his presentation of Dharma and likes to mix ideas and teachings from different traditions. Some people seem to like that but others have become quite sceptical. He knows his stuff and is a gifted teacher but whether or not everything he says is true - well, as they say - caveat emptor.How come I never see Gelugpa lamas and Rinpoche teach the "Tibetan surya namaskar" exercise?
Thanks,
Rahula
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Hi,
According to Roach, he learned it from Khen Rinpoche Geshe Lobsang Tharchin and Sermey Jetsun Geshe Thupten, Rinchen and they in turned, learned it from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.
Trul khor (magical wheel) seems to present at least in the Nyingma tradition (Yantra Yoga, Namkhai Norbu) and Bon - Tenzing Wangyal Rinpoche (Marco Ajejandro Chaoul [2006, PhD thesis] Magical Movements (phrul khor): Ancient Yogic Practice in the Bon Religion and Contemporary Medical Perspective)
I wonder if this "surya namaskar" is part of Gelug trul khor practice. I am well aware that Longchenpa, in Tsigdon Dzo, mentioned that sexual yoga and trul khor are not essential part of Great Perfection, though sometimes are taught as when it is necessary for certain people. (Tsigdon Dzo's English trandlation can be found in Gavid Germano PhD thesis (1992))
Thanks,
Rahula
According to Roach, he learned it from Khen Rinpoche Geshe Lobsang Tharchin and Sermey Jetsun Geshe Thupten, Rinchen and they in turned, learned it from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.
Trul khor (magical wheel) seems to present at least in the Nyingma tradition (Yantra Yoga, Namkhai Norbu) and Bon - Tenzing Wangyal Rinpoche (Marco Ajejandro Chaoul [2006, PhD thesis] Magical Movements (phrul khor): Ancient Yogic Practice in the Bon Religion and Contemporary Medical Perspective)
I wonder if this "surya namaskar" is part of Gelug trul khor practice. I am well aware that Longchenpa, in Tsigdon Dzo, mentioned that sexual yoga and trul khor are not essential part of Great Perfection, though sometimes are taught as when it is necessary for certain people. (Tsigdon Dzo's English trandlation can be found in Gavid Germano PhD thesis (1992))
Thanks,
Rahula
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
OK in that case Mr Roach must be talking about the Tumo exercises mentioned before. If he wants to integrate them with Hatha Yoga from the Indian tradition and call it Tibetan Yoga and teach it publicly that's his business. I was taught them in the context of certain Gelug Highest Yoga Tantra practices and as such I think they might be secret. 'Surya namaskar' wasn't one of them.rahula80 wrote:Hi,
According to Roach, he learned it from Khen Rinpoche Geshe Lobsang Tharchin and Sermey Jetsun Geshe Thupten, Rinchen and they in turned, learned it from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.
Trul khor (magical wheel) seems to present at least in the Nyingma tradition (Yantra Yoga, Namkhai Norbu) and Bon - Tenzing Wangyal Rinpoche (Marco Ajejandro Chaoul [2006, PhD thesis] Magical Movements (phrul khor): Ancient Yogic Practice in the Bon Religion and Contemporary Medical Perspective)
I wonder if this "surya namaskar" is part of Gelug trul khor practice. I am well aware that Longchenpa, in Tsigdon Dzo, mentioned that sexual yoga and trul khor are not essential part of Great Perfection, though sometimes are taught as when it is necessary for certain people. (Tsigdon Dzo's English trandlation can be found in Gavid Germano PhD thesis (1992))
Thanks,
Rahula
Be a little cautious of those who teach the path of 'sexual tantra' as it's often a justification for their own attachment to ordinary pleasure. Sexual energy is definitely utilized in tantric practice but those who can successfully and correctly transform it are few and far between. Union with a consort is one of the ways by which it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this life but someone who is really ready to practice this method is already an extremely accomplished yogi. There's a world of difference between those who want to practice 'sexual yoga' and those who are qualified to do so.
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Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Roach has not been a reliable exponent of Geluk teachings in many years.rahula80 wrote:Hi,
There is a text called "The Book of Three Beliefs", attributed to Tsongkhapa by Roach, in The Tibetan Book of Yoga.
Can anyone confirm the authenticity of the text? How come I never see Gelugpa lamas and Rinpoche teach the "Tibetan surya namaskar" exercise?
Thanks,
Rahula
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Most of what is said in this discussion is incorrect. That comes from a lack of education in the dharma. Two of the most obvious errors are that the Tibetan Tradition did not practice physical yogas. The clear evidence that this is wrong is to merely look at the wall paintings in Lukhang which were done at the time of the sixth Dalai Lama. The second factual error is that "The Book of Three Beliefs" is the Three Principle Paths, or is some mistranslation of some other text. "The Book of Three Beliefs" is a Tantric text. It titled "Zab lam na ro'i chos drug gi 'khrid yig ches gsum ldan" It has also been translated as "A Book of Three Inspirations" and it is not the Lam Rim Chen Mo or some other Stages of the Path teachings.
It concerns me that people speculate or make up ideas to fill in the blanks that an improper dharma education created. Study, contemplate and meditate.
It concerns me that people speculate or make up ideas to fill in the blanks that an improper dharma education created. Study, contemplate and meditate.
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Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
I agree with what Badself posts. A full translation of "Zab lam na ro'i chos drug gi 'khrid yig ches gsum ldan" would be, I think, "The Three Inspirations, Words of Explanation of the profound path of Naropa's Six Dharmas." I think this is what the OP is referring to.
As for Roach, I would not count on him to transmit such a text. It is quite clear that he is in the process of creating a syncretic system of his own, based on Geluk teachings, Indian Hatha Yoga, his own ideas regarding Christianity and other traditions, and some sort of "relationship-based Couples Counseling" ideas.... I believe his wife or partner is also teaching some of the Shangpa yogic practices publically, as well. This is unfortunate, in my view.
"Trulkhor" shouldn't be translated as "Magical Wheel," either. It misses the subtlety of the original Tibetan. Physical asanas are a part of all Tibetan lineages, including the Nyingma lineages. To the best of my knowledge, Surya Namaskar is not found in any of the Tibetan lineages.
As for Roach, I would not count on him to transmit such a text. It is quite clear that he is in the process of creating a syncretic system of his own, based on Geluk teachings, Indian Hatha Yoga, his own ideas regarding Christianity and other traditions, and some sort of "relationship-based Couples Counseling" ideas.... I believe his wife or partner is also teaching some of the Shangpa yogic practices publically, as well. This is unfortunate, in my view.
"Trulkhor" shouldn't be translated as "Magical Wheel," either. It misses the subtlety of the original Tibetan. Physical asanas are a part of all Tibetan lineages, including the Nyingma lineages. To the best of my knowledge, Surya Namaskar is not found in any of the Tibetan lineages.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
badself wrote:Most of what is said in this discussion is incorrect. That comes from a lack of education in the dharma. Two of the most obvious errors are that the Tibetan Tradition did not practice physical yogas. The clear evidence that this is wrong is to merely look at the wall paintings in Lukhang which were done at the time of the sixth Dalai Lama. The second factual error is that "The Book of Three Beliefs" is the Three Principle Paths, or is some mistranslation of some other text. "The Book of Three Beliefs" is a Tantric text. It titled "Zab lam na ro'i chos drug gi 'khrid yig ches gsum ldan" It has also been translated as "A Book of Three Inspirations" and it is not the Lam Rim Chen Mo or some other Stages of the Path teachings.
It concerns me that people speculate or make up ideas to fill in the blanks that an improper dharma education created. Study, contemplate and meditate.
To be fair, Tilopa did not categorically state that this was the Three Principles of the Path, he said
As to the physical yogas or exercises obviously the Tibetans have and practice them. Whether they specifically use the term "yoga" (neljor) for those exercises I am not sure, I have never heard it referred to as such but that could easily be my lack of experience/knowledge. Do you have textual references to these physical exercises as "yoga/neljor"? The term seems to be more used in terms of "union" in Tibetan BUddhist traditions.This might be his way of translating "The Three Principals of the Path" but I'm not sure as I haven't read the T B of Yoga and don't know the context. I've never heard of "The Book of Three Beliefs".
In any case the whole Michael Roach story, as has been pointed out, is rather unfortunate, but it seemed clear to some of us even before he went on that questionable 3 year retreat, out of which he emerged much more obviously so, that he was a tad off track.
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
To be fair, Tilopa did not categorically state that this was the Three Principles of the Path, he said:
This might be his way of translating "The Three Principals of the Path" but I'm not sure as I haven't read the T B of Yoga and don't know the context. I've never heard of "The Book of Three Beliefs"
Thanks mudra
I specifically said there were physical exercises taught in the context of tummo practice and there may be others as well. You might have misunderstood my post in which case I apologise for my lack of clarity. What I meant to say was that hatha yoga didn't (and doesn't) play a big role in the spiritual life of Tibetans in the way it has traditionally done in the Indian culture.Badself said:
Two of the most obvious errors are that the Tibetan Tradition did not practice physical yogas. The clear evidence that this is wrong is to merely look at the wall paintings in Lukhang which were done at the time of the sixth Dalai Lama.
Sad but true.Mudra also said:
In any case the whole Michael Roach story, as has been pointed out, is rather unfortunate, but it seemed clear to some of us even before he went on that questionable 3 year retreat, out of which he emerged much more obviously so, that he was a tad off track.
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Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Actually from my brief experience with it, -the Yantra Yoga that is taught in Namkai Norbu's mandala does include a basic cycle very similar to surya namaskar. The lineage is said to trace back to Vairochana. However, the way the breath and attention are worked with, as well as the rythm of the movements is much different than anything I've ever experienced in various lineages of Hatha Yoga coming directly from India..
From the website:
"Yantra Yoga or the Yoga of Movement, is one of the oldest recorded systems of Yoga that exists in the world. It is a system of Yoga that has come to us through Tibet, a land full of a vast and rich traditional Buddhist knowledge and wisdom.
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu has written an extensive commentary on the root teachings by Vairocana from the 8th century, Nyida Khajor, the Union of Sun and Moon Yantra, based on his personal training and knowledge of Yantra Yoga received from his uncle and various teachers in Tibet. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu began teaching Yantra Yoga in the beginning of the 70’s in Italy." http://www.yantrayoga.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From the website:
"Yantra Yoga or the Yoga of Movement, is one of the oldest recorded systems of Yoga that exists in the world. It is a system of Yoga that has come to us through Tibet, a land full of a vast and rich traditional Buddhist knowledge and wisdom.
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu has written an extensive commentary on the root teachings by Vairocana from the 8th century, Nyida Khajor, the Union of Sun and Moon Yantra, based on his personal training and knowledge of Yantra Yoga received from his uncle and various teachers in Tibet. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu began teaching Yantra Yoga in the beginning of the 70’s in Italy." http://www.yantrayoga.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
- conebeckham
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Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
By the way, the "Book of Three Inspirations" is translated into English, and published by Snow Lion in one of their books.....
I hesitated to put this out there, but perhaps actually reading it may clear up some misconceptions, and allow folks to understand a bit more. In any case, this stuff can't be practiced without the actual instruction from a master, and without guidance along the way from the master.
I hesitated to put this out there, but perhaps actually reading it may clear up some misconceptions, and allow folks to understand a bit more. In any case, this stuff can't be practiced without the actual instruction from a master, and without guidance along the way from the master.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
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Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Here you go, it's been republished with a new cover....
http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_8383.html
http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_8383.html
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
yo,
what really happened to Roach? I mean it seems like that guy does have a wealth of knowledge about dharma but that he did go a bit off track. In his teaches prior to his 3 year retreat I heard him saying that if someone is an arya they will never say it publicly. THen what does he do he makes a letter claiming to be an arya. Also He seems to have very complex ideas about emptiness and what emptiness is and so forth. I am really not well enough studied to know how Tsongkhapa taught emptiness but when hearing his ideas I can't but help wonder if they are right. Also he seems to have a knack for putting his own personal spin on the things- the teachings which could confuse students. And by the way, last time I saw Roach was broken up from his girlfriend and this was published in the nypost..
http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues ... hael+Roach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
a sad state of affairs indeed I wish that guy had just stayed more loyal to the teachings he could be a wealth of knowledge for the western world and he is obviously a talented and smart man.. just kind of worried about him pulling a jim jones or something...
what really happened to Roach? I mean it seems like that guy does have a wealth of knowledge about dharma but that he did go a bit off track. In his teaches prior to his 3 year retreat I heard him saying that if someone is an arya they will never say it publicly. THen what does he do he makes a letter claiming to be an arya. Also He seems to have very complex ideas about emptiness and what emptiness is and so forth. I am really not well enough studied to know how Tsongkhapa taught emptiness but when hearing his ideas I can't but help wonder if they are right. Also he seems to have a knack for putting his own personal spin on the things- the teachings which could confuse students. And by the way, last time I saw Roach was broken up from his girlfriend and this was published in the nypost..
http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues ... hael+Roach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
a sad state of affairs indeed I wish that guy had just stayed more loyal to the teachings he could be a wealth of knowledge for the western world and he is obviously a talented and smart man.. just kind of worried about him pulling a jim jones or something...
- Adamantine
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Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
tamdrin wrote:yo,
what really happened to Roach? I mean it seems like that guy does have a wealth of knowledge about dharma but that he did go a bit off track. In his teaches prior to his 3 year retreat I heard him saying that if someone is an arya they will never say it publicly. THen what does he do he makes a letter claiming to be an arya. Also He seems to have very complex ideas about emptiness and what emptiness is and so forth. I am really not well enough studied to know how Tsongkhapa taught emptiness but when hearing his ideas I can't but help wonder if they are right. Also he seems to have a knack for putting his own personal spin on the things- the teachings which could confuse students. And by the way, last time I saw Roach was broken up from his girlfriend and this was published in the nypost..
http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues ... hael+Roach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
a sad state of affairs indeed I wish that guy had just stayed more loyal to the teachings he could be a wealth of knowledge for the western world and he is obviously a talented and smart man.. just kind of worried about him pulling a jim jones or something...
This is why the loss of Esangha and it's archives is a bit unfortunate. There was a thread over 20 pages long from 2006 or so, that covered in detail everything you're asking about. But I think the most simple answer is to look towards non-controversial Lamas who are pure holders of pure lineage, --and look to them with devotion.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Excellent post Adamantine.Adamantine wrote:But I think the most simple answer is to look towards non-controversial Lamas who are pure holders of pure lineage, --and look to them with devotion.tamdrin wrote:yo,
what really happened to Roach? I mean it seems like that guy does have a wealth of knowledge about dharma but that he did go a bit off track. In his teaches prior to his 3 year retreat I heard him saying that if someone is an arya they will never say it publicly. THen what does he do he makes a letter claiming to be an arya. Also He seems to have very complex ideas about emptiness and what emptiness is and so forth. I am really not well enough studied to know how Tsongkhapa taught emptiness but when hearing his ideas I can't but help wonder if they are right. Also he seems to have a knack for putting his own personal spin on the things- the teachings which could confuse students. And by the way, last time I saw Roach was broken up from his girlfriend and this was published in the nypost..
http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues ... hael+Roach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
a sad state of affairs indeed I wish that guy had just stayed more loyal to the teachings he could be a wealth of knowledge for the western world and he is obviously a talented and smart man.. just kind of worried about him pulling a jim jones or something...
With so many excellent legitimate teachers out there to choose from I am always baffled as to why people would even take the risk with people like Roach and others.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
There was a way to access the directory of posts at e-sangha but I am unsure how..
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Earlier in his life Michael Roach did a lot of good for the dharma and helped many people. Then things got very weird and now it looks like he has done enormous harm. I think it's incredibly sad but there are important lessons to be learned - take the time to check a persons inner qualities before elevating them to the status of guru and be suspicious of those who make claims about their spiritual attainments.Nangwa wrote: With so many excellent legitimate teachers out there to choose from I am always baffled as to why people would even take the risk with people like Roach and others.
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
found it:
http://web.archive.org/web/200606132327 ... opic=31179" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://web.archive.org/web/200606132327 ... opic=31179" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
I don't think that's the thread I was referring to... what's more, I couldn't even get to the second page, it said there was a server errortamdrin wrote:found it:
http://web.archive.org/web/200606132327 ... opic=31179" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: The Book of Three Beliefs
Whoa, tamdrin how did you extract that E-sangha thread? I've been wondering how to go back and look at various threads and have never been able to figure it out! Never was much of a hacker.
Any tips appreciated.
Sorry to derail this thread..
Any tips appreciated.
Sorry to derail this thread..