Cops raid at the Karmapas office

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:09 am

To Yeshe, to Greg, and to all-
Regardless of how we feel about Tibetan "politics," or about the Dharma and money, or about any of this......the main thing is to recognize that the practice is the point.....the institutions and all the accompanying "samsaric" window-dressing are only for maintaining the transmission of something that cannot be stained. Maintaining a pure view, and pure devotion toward the lineage, is the thing. The so-called" reality of this situation will become apparent eventually, and those in the right will be seen in the light...those with less-then-pure motivations will come face-to-face with themselves, and their motives, in the bright light of day. No amount of internet activity, or reportage from any side, will change that in the end. No lawsuits, no political mechinations, no force......violence...... The inexorable truth of Karma cannot be changed merely by an op-ed piece in the news, or by wishing it were otherwise....or by any of these things.

In the meantime, may all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness. May all beings be free of suffering, and the causes of suffering.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:30 am

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Grigoris
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:53 am

Dear Cone,

I dunno, but it seems to me that the stainless and incomparable lineage of the Karma Kagyu doesn't need bundles of foreign currency in order for the practices to survive, what it needs are devoted and unrelenting practitioners (and this is true of any lineage and tradition). If the practices bring the "desired" results then the institutions, and all the other leeches making a profit off of the practice, don't mean squat!

You see I believe that institutions are not the samsaric fronts of the practice, the practices don't need a front (or a back for that matter), institutions utilise these perfect practices as a front, as a means to their samsaric ends. The ascetics, the siddhas and all the other realised beings don't need a front for their practice. Anyway, no matter how many bundles of foreign currency any lineage or tradition (or their institutions) may accumulate this is no guarantee of: a) their survival and b) their pertinence.

There is a lesson here to be learnt for all traditions and lineages and it ain't "find a better stash for your cash"!

Well I'm off to do some prostrations, ie work on my spiritual front! :tongue:
:namaste:
PS Let me draw your attention back to the Nandana Sutta that I posted, it seems you skipped that one and went straight to the Appaka Sutta.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Jinzang
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Jinzang » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:42 am

The standard education for a Karma Kagyu monk is nine years of shedra followed by a three year three month retreat. Someone has to support the monks while they're being trained and educated. The support comes from donations from lay supporters and most of the money donated goes to support monks being trained. If there is going to be another generation of Tibetan Buddhist teachers they need to be trained now and that is why the generous support of donrs is needed.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!"

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby J-Bird » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:36 am


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:59 pm

Hmmmmm...

Again people are confounding the practice with the institution. Maybe a short history lesson is needed?

The Kagyu, as an institution, really started to take form from Gampopa onwards. It was after Gampopa that Karmapa's, Sharmapa's, Situpa's and all manner of "funny-hat" wearing gentlemen popped up. Now, truth be said, originally the Karmapa's used to travel around with their retinue pitching tents along with the best of the Tibetan nomads, but after a while as the institutions started to soldify, well we know what the outcomes are dont we?

So, let's look back at the glorious lineage that gave birth to the Kagyu institution: Tilopa (originally a high paid brahmin priest to a king, left it all to pound sesame seeds for a living, and pounded Naropa into enlightenment), Naropa (abbot at Nalanda gives it all up to follow Tilopa and live in a retreat hut begging for alms), Saraha (abbot at Nalanda, got kicked out for "boozin 'n' floozin' "had a thing for sitting in jungles and eating turnip soup), Savaripa (a hunter living in a forest, given his sadhana by Avalokitesvara (well Saraha in disguise actually) himself), Nagarjuna (starts of as a brahmin, exiles himself after causing "a bit of bovver" goes to Nalanda and leaves to give live in caves and beg for food), Marpa? Milarepa?, etc... (I reccomend Masters of Mahamudra for a bit of background to the heavily stained Kagyu lineage)

So you see, and quite clearly, that the practices do not require institutions, the practices were doing just fine well before the institutions came into play. Now it is true that the institutions may act as physical supports for the practices BUT begging for ones food and "homelessness" were a couple of the main practices that the Buddha himself practiced and taught.

Lest we forget!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:23 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

sherabpa
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:40 pm


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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:26 pm

I like this ^ from Sherabpa....

Marpa was a "Gentleman Farmer," we might say....he wasn't part of an "institutionalized Buddhism"--but he had to return to Tibet when his money ran out, to gather more. Those Mahasiddhas in India may not have been part of an "institutionalized" Buddhism, either...but they WORKED for it, that's for sure. Milarepa, too--anyone feel like building me a tower or two? :smile:

But I don't think Greg has issues with working for the dharma or paying for the dharma, per se....I think his concerns are with money and wealth being the PRIMARY concerns of the institutions. I don't see this, in the scenario we're discussing, but I grant that there must be "Dharma Teachers" who are only in it for the money. I suppose?

Also, one quibble with Sherabpa's post....the issue, to me, is not the "Chinese Connection." That's the red herring.....or one of them.

The issue, to me, is why the investigation in the first place? Given, as noted, that it is likely no different from the situation with many other monasteries, ashrams, etc., in India, why the big deal, why the Front Page News? Who started this ball rolling, and who keeps kicking it downhill?


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:05 pm

Here's the latest, from Karmapa's Office:

http://www.kagyuoffice.org/#Feb6Statement
Member of Italian Foreign Affairs Committee Expresses Solidarity & Office Denies Baseless Claim that China SIM Cards Found
7 February, 2011. Dharamsala


The Karmapa Office of Administration gratefully acknowledges the overwhelming support for His Holiness the Karmapa from well-wishers all across India and from around the world. Today, Matteo Mecacci, a member of the Italian Parliament, paid a personal visit to His Holiness the Karmapa at his residence in Dharamsala. While expressing faith and respect for the Indian judicial process, the Italian MP—who serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Italian Chamber of Deputies—also expressed his solidarity with His Holiness the Karmapa during this trying period. He requested spiritual solidarity in return from His Holiness.

We were also pleased to see some fair and balanced coverage in the media over the weekend. However, we again completely deny the libelous press reports claiming that Chinese SIM cards were found on our premises. This constitutes libel and outright defamation of character. No SIM cards were taken. No SIM cards are listed on the seizure memos issued by the police themselves. Inspector Ramesh Rama of the Kangra police—who was one of the officers conducting the police raids—today confirmed what our Office already knew. He stated that the Kangra police knew nothing of such SIM cards and were as puzzled as we are by the reports that such SIM cards had been seized.

The charge of espionage is a matter with grave consequences. His Holiness the Karmapa is a highly revered spiritual leader of a Buddhist order with millions of devotees worldwide. He has the unwavering confidence and support of His Holiness the Dalai Lama as well as the entire Tibetan Government-in-exile. By repeating such unfounded claims without even bothering to check facts or seek comment, the media printing such fabrications is engaging in blatant character assassination. The Karmapa Office of Administration has issued letters to the editors of the relevant publications seeking an immediate retraction and apology.

And from yesterday:

The Karmapa Office of Administration welcomes the Central Government's expression of confidence in His Holiness the Karmapa. Union Minister Virbhadra Singh travelled to the state from Delhi and made several clear statements of support for His Holiness the Karmapa and the Tibetan community as a whole. Addressing a press conference, Union Minister Singh charged the Himachal Pradesh state government with maligning His Holiness the Karmapa. He further urged regularizing land purchase rules to grant Tibetans certain rights to own land in Himachal Pradesh, in which Dharamsala is located. Union Minister Singh is a member of the Cabinet of the Indian Government and a five-time former chief minister of the state of Himachal Pradesh.

However, we are disappointed to note that some press are continuing to report major inaccuracies and outright fabrications. We reiterate in the strongest possible terms that reports, such as the one published most recently by Times of India, that Chinese SIM cards were seized from the monastery is pure fiction. No SIM cards were taken, as can be confirmed by the seizure list prepared (FIR No23/11, dated 26/1/2011 by the police). The repeated assertion of this outright lie constitutes baseless slander, and defames the character of one of the most revered figures in Tibetan Buddhism. The fact that such fictitious reports are published without contacting the accused party's spokespersons for comments indicates that these members of the press are are not objective reporters. We welcome the press to contact us to check their facts or seek comment, and call on the press to rise to the standards of responsible journalism.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

tamdrin
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby tamdrin » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:02 am

Havn't these Lama's heard of banks. I mean who keeps hundreds of thousands of dollars of cash in boxes lying around in their homes. That is a little silly IMHO, as the Dalai Lama has said the Karmapa should then keep his money in a sort of Trust which will be dispersed for his projects.

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:15 am

The trust has been trying to deposit money in the banks, but they were not able to get approval....one of the responses mentions this.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby narraboth » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:40 pm

Trust or bank account is really quite a 20th centry stuff.
In Tibet, people used to offer gold, silver, butter and all valuables to temple and lama, and they keep it for good (usually).
We go further, India at Buddha's time, when all kings offer all valuables, did they ask after 'mmm, how the sangha are going to use it? why people need it when they are giving up worldly life?' People offer for their own good, for their own merit. It's not their concern about what food sangha is going to buy with the money, otherwise it's not an offer. Offering means giving up.

The more funny thing here is, people didn't offer anything, and they accuse why Karmapa got so much offering, and karmapa didn't use the money properly... I mean, come on, what's that to do with you?
Donating itself can accumulates merit, no matter the donate would become tons of cash or become some a luxury temple which some people think monks don't need. I will rejoice for other people's generosity.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby narraboth » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:58 pm

( http://www.kagyuoffice.org/ ):

SHORTLY HERE:

"With the tremendous outpouring of messages of support from people around the world wishing to contribute positively to the current situation, His Holiness the Karmapa has advised the international Dharma centers, students and supporters around the world that the following practices would be good to do in the current situation:

Prayers to the 21 Taras
Seven-Limb Supplication to Padmasambhava
Dharma Protector Practice, such as Mahakala and others

His Holiness also mentioned that if people wish to contact other Dharma friends from other centers in their area -- not only Karma Kagyu, but practitioners of all schools of Tibetan Buddhism - and join with them to do group practice sessions together, that would also be very auspicious."

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Blue Garuda » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:08 pm

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Grigoris
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:41 pm

Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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conebeckham
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:29 pm

Giving with good intention and devotion is the most important thing. We're not talking about dictators here, are we? We're talking about the Karmapa, and the Karma Kagyu lineage.

It's true that there are a variety of factors involved in Dana, but the main thing is devotion and aspiration. Recall the story of the Dog's Tooth.

Yeshe--As for the "amount" of money--It's not about that. Another Red Herring. The investigation/sting/raid/whatever-you-want-to-call-it occurred shortly after the Kagyu Monlam. If I were looking for cash at the Kagyu Administation's offices, that is certainly when I'd go and look for it.....anyone who's been to a big Tibetan Ceremony knows that the envelopes and cash left on the thrones, along with all those Katags, is going to be pretty sizable. People make offerings at big pujas. The monks collect it. The question is, what should they do with it once it's collected? If India won't let them deposit it in a bank, then what?

There was a pending land purchase---if you guys actually READ the reports, you'll see that this appears to be the "central issue" the local government is really addressing.......


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Grigoris
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:00 pm

Paranoia about refugees buying up large parcels of land, I think you'll find that in just about every country on this planet!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Mr. G » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:01 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Grigoris » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:37 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde


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