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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:12 am 
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Hi,

There is a text called "The Book of Three Beliefs", attributed to Tsongkhapa by Roach, in The Tibetan Book of Yoga.
Can anyone confirm the authenticity of the text? How come I never see Gelugpa lamas and Rinpoche teach the "Tibetan surya namaskar" exercise?

Thanks,
Rahula


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:24 am 
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rahula80 wrote:
Hi,
There is a text called "The Book of Three Beliefs", attributed to Tsongkhapa by Roach, in The Tibetan Book of Yoga.
Can anyone confirm the authenticity of the text?


This might be his way of translating "The Three Principals of the Path" but I'm not sure as I haven't read the T B of Yoga and don't know the context. I've never heard of "The Book of Three Beliefs".

Quote:
How come I never see Gelugpa lamas and Rinpoche teach the "Tibetan surya namaskar" exercise?
Thanks,
Rahula


Physical yoga has never been part of the Tibetan tradition the way it is in the Indian/ Hindu systems and although there are some exercises taught for those practicing Tumo 'Salute to the Sun' isn't one of them. A long time ago Mr.Roach was quite orthodox but over the years he has become increasingly 'new age' in his presentation of Dharma and likes to mix ideas and teachings from different traditions. Some people seem to like that but others have become quite sceptical. He knows his stuff and is a gifted teacher but whether or not everything he says is true - well, as they say - caveat emptor.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:52 pm 
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Hi,

According to Roach, he learned it from Khen Rinpoche Geshe Lobsang Tharchin and Sermey Jetsun Geshe Thupten, Rinchen and they in turned, learned it from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.

Trul khor (magical wheel) seems to present at least in the Nyingma tradition (Yantra Yoga, Namkhai Norbu) and Bon - Tenzing Wangyal Rinpoche (Marco Ajejandro Chaoul [2006, PhD thesis] Magical Movements (phrul khor): Ancient Yogic Practice in the Bon Religion and Contemporary Medical Perspective)

I wonder if this "surya namaskar" is part of Gelug trul khor practice. I am well aware that Longchenpa, in Tsigdon Dzo, mentioned that sexual yoga and trul khor are not essential part of Great Perfection, though sometimes are taught as when it is necessary for certain people. (Tsigdon Dzo's English trandlation can be found in Gavid Germano PhD thesis (1992))

Thanks,
Rahula


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:02 pm 
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rahula80 wrote:
Hi,

According to Roach, he learned it from Khen Rinpoche Geshe Lobsang Tharchin and Sermey Jetsun Geshe Thupten, Rinchen and they in turned, learned it from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.

Trul khor (magical wheel) seems to present at least in the Nyingma tradition (Yantra Yoga, Namkhai Norbu) and Bon - Tenzing Wangyal Rinpoche (Marco Ajejandro Chaoul [2006, PhD thesis] Magical Movements (phrul khor): Ancient Yogic Practice in the Bon Religion and Contemporary Medical Perspective)

I wonder if this "surya namaskar" is part of Gelug trul khor practice. I am well aware that Longchenpa, in Tsigdon Dzo, mentioned that sexual yoga and trul khor are not essential part of Great Perfection, though sometimes are taught as when it is necessary for certain people. (Tsigdon Dzo's English trandlation can be found in Gavid Germano PhD thesis (1992))

Thanks,
Rahula


OK in that case Mr Roach must be talking about the Tumo exercises mentioned before. If he wants to integrate them with Hatha Yoga from the Indian tradition and call it Tibetan Yoga and teach it publicly that's his business. I was taught them in the context of certain Gelug Highest Yoga Tantra practices and as such I think they might be secret. 'Surya namaskar' wasn't one of them.

Be a little cautious of those who teach the path of 'sexual tantra' as it's often a justification for their own attachment to ordinary pleasure. Sexual energy is definitely utilized in tantric practice but those who can successfully and correctly transform it are few and far between. Union with a consort is one of the ways by which it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this life but someone who is really ready to practice this method is already an extremely accomplished yogi. There's a world of difference between those who want to practice 'sexual yoga' and those who are qualified to do so. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:32 am 
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rahula80 wrote:
Hi,

There is a text called "The Book of Three Beliefs", attributed to Tsongkhapa by Roach, in The Tibetan Book of Yoga.
Can anyone confirm the authenticity of the text? How come I never see Gelugpa lamas and Rinpoche teach the "Tibetan surya namaskar" exercise?

Thanks,
Rahula


Roach has not been a reliable exponent of Geluk teachings in many years.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Most of what is said in this discussion is incorrect. That comes from a lack of education in the dharma. Two of the most obvious errors are that the Tibetan Tradition did not practice physical yogas. The clear evidence that this is wrong is to merely look at the wall paintings in Lukhang which were done at the time of the sixth Dalai Lama. The second factual error is that "The Book of Three Beliefs" is the Three Principle Paths, or is some mistranslation of some other text. "The Book of Three Beliefs" is a Tantric text. It titled "Zab lam na ro'i chos drug gi 'khrid yig ches gsum ldan" It has also been translated as "A Book of Three Inspirations" and it is not the Lam Rim Chen Mo or some other Stages of the Path teachings.

It concerns me that people speculate or make up ideas to fill in the blanks that an improper dharma education created. Study, contemplate and meditate.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:27 pm 
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I agree with what Badself posts. A full translation of "Zab lam na ro'i chos drug gi 'khrid yig ches gsum ldan" would be, I think, "The Three Inspirations, Words of Explanation of the profound path of Naropa's Six Dharmas." I think this is what the OP is referring to.

As for Roach, I would not count on him to transmit such a text. It is quite clear that he is in the process of creating a syncretic system of his own, based on Geluk teachings, Indian Hatha Yoga, his own ideas regarding Christianity and other traditions, and some sort of "relationship-based Couples Counseling" ideas.... I believe his wife or partner is also teaching some of the Shangpa yogic practices publically, as well. This is unfortunate, in my view.

"Trulkhor" shouldn't be translated as "Magical Wheel," either. It misses the subtlety of the original Tibetan. Physical asanas are a part of all Tibetan lineages, including the Nyingma lineages. To the best of my knowledge, Surya Namaskar is not found in any of the Tibetan lineages.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:54 am 
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badself wrote:
Most of what is said in this discussion is incorrect. That comes from a lack of education in the dharma. Two of the most obvious errors are that the Tibetan Tradition did not practice physical yogas. The clear evidence that this is wrong is to merely look at the wall paintings in Lukhang which were done at the time of the sixth Dalai Lama. The second factual error is that "The Book of Three Beliefs" is the Three Principle Paths, or is some mistranslation of some other text. "The Book of Three Beliefs" is a Tantric text. It titled "Zab lam na ro'i chos drug gi 'khrid yig ches gsum ldan" It has also been translated as "A Book of Three Inspirations" and it is not the Lam Rim Chen Mo or some other Stages of the Path teachings.

It concerns me that people speculate or make up ideas to fill in the blanks that an improper dharma education created. Study, contemplate and meditate.



To be fair, Tilopa did not categorically state that this was the Three Principles of the Path, he said
Quote:
This might be his way of translating "The Three Principals of the Path" but I'm not sure as I haven't read the T B of Yoga and don't know the context. I've never heard of "The Book of Three Beliefs".


As to the physical yogas or exercises obviously the Tibetans have and practice them. Whether they specifically use the term "yoga" (neljor) for those exercises I am not sure, I have never heard it referred to as such but that could easily be my lack of experience/knowledge. Do you have textual references to these physical exercises as "yoga/neljor"? The term seems to be more used in terms of "union" in Tibetan BUddhist traditions.

In any case the whole Michael Roach story, as has been pointed out, is rather unfortunate, but it seemed clear to some of us even before he went on that questionable 3 year retreat, out of which he emerged much more obviously so, that he was a tad off track.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:42 am 
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Quote:
To be fair, Tilopa did not categorically state that this was the Three Principles of the Path, he said:

This might be his way of translating "The Three Principals of the Path" but I'm not sure as I haven't read the T B of Yoga and don't know the context. I've never heard of "The Book of Three Beliefs"


Thanks mudra :twothumbsup:


Quote:
Badself said:

Two of the most obvious errors are that the Tibetan Tradition did not practice physical yogas. The clear evidence that this is wrong is to merely look at the wall paintings in Lukhang which were done at the time of the sixth Dalai Lama.


I specifically said there were physical exercises taught in the context of tummo practice and there may be others as well. You might have misunderstood my post in which case I apologise for my lack of clarity. What I meant to say was that hatha yoga didn't (and doesn't) play a big role in the spiritual life of Tibetans in the way it has traditionally done in the Indian culture.

Quote:
Mudra also said:
In any case the whole Michael Roach story, as has been pointed out, is rather unfortunate, but it seemed clear to some of us even before he went on that questionable 3 year retreat, out of which he emerged much more obviously so, that he was a tad off track.

Sad but true.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:16 am 
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Actually from my brief experience with it, -the Yantra Yoga that is taught in Namkai Norbu's mandala does include a basic cycle very similar to surya namaskar. The lineage is said to trace back to Vairochana. However, the way the breath and attention are worked with, as well as the rythm of the movements is much different than anything I've ever experienced in various lineages of Hatha Yoga coming directly from India..
From the website:
"Yantra Yoga or the Yoga of Movement, is one of the oldest recorded systems of Yoga that exists in the world. It is a system of Yoga that has come to us through Tibet, a land full of a vast and rich traditional Buddhist knowledge and wisdom.
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu has written an extensive commentary on the root teachings by Vairocana from the 8th century, Nyida Khajor, the Union of Sun and Moon Yantra, based on his personal training and knowledge of Yantra Yoga received from his uncle and various teachers in Tibet. Chögyal Namkhai Norbu began teaching Yantra Yoga in the beginning of the 70’s in Italy." http://www.yantrayoga.org/

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:32 pm 
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By the way, the "Book of Three Inspirations" is translated into English, and published by Snow Lion in one of their books.....

I hesitated to put this out there, but perhaps actually reading it may clear up some misconceptions, and allow folks to understand a bit more. In any case, this stuff can't be practiced without the actual instruction from a master, and without guidance along the way from the master.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Here you go, it's been republished with a new cover....

http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_8383.html

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:50 pm 
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yo,
what really happened to Roach? I mean it seems like that guy does have a wealth of knowledge about dharma but that he did go a bit off track. In his teaches prior to his 3 year retreat I heard him saying that if someone is an arya they will never say it publicly. THen what does he do he makes a letter claiming to be an arya. Also He seems to have very complex ideas about emptiness and what emptiness is and so forth. I am really not well enough studied to know how Tsongkhapa taught emptiness but when hearing his ideas I can't but help wonder if they are right. Also he seems to have a knack for putting his own personal spin on the things- the teachings which could confuse students. And by the way, last time I saw Roach was broken up from his girlfriend and this was published in the nypost..

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues ... hael+Roach


a sad state of affairs indeed I wish that guy had just stayed more loyal to the teachings he could be a wealth of knowledge for the western world and he is obviously a talented and smart man.. just kind of worried about him pulling a jim jones or something...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:13 pm 
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tamdrin wrote:
yo,
what really happened to Roach? I mean it seems like that guy does have a wealth of knowledge about dharma but that he did go a bit off track. In his teaches prior to his 3 year retreat I heard him saying that if someone is an arya they will never say it publicly. THen what does he do he makes a letter claiming to be an arya. Also He seems to have very complex ideas about emptiness and what emptiness is and so forth. I am really not well enough studied to know how Tsongkhapa taught emptiness but when hearing his ideas I can't but help wonder if they are right. Also he seems to have a knack for putting his own personal spin on the things- the teachings which could confuse students. And by the way, last time I saw Roach was broken up from his girlfriend and this was published in the nypost..

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues ... hael+Roach


a sad state of affairs indeed I wish that guy had just stayed more loyal to the teachings he could be a wealth of knowledge for the western world and he is obviously a talented and smart man.. just kind of worried about him pulling a jim jones or something...



This is why the loss of Esangha and it's archives is a bit unfortunate. There was a thread over 20 pages long from 2006 or so, that covered in detail everything you're asking about. But I think the most simple answer is to look towards non-controversial Lamas who are pure holders of pure lineage, --and look to them with devotion.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:21 pm 
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Adamantine wrote:
tamdrin wrote:
yo,
what really happened to Roach? I mean it seems like that guy does have a wealth of knowledge about dharma but that he did go a bit off track. In his teaches prior to his 3 year retreat I heard him saying that if someone is an arya they will never say it publicly. THen what does he do he makes a letter claiming to be an arya. Also He seems to have very complex ideas about emptiness and what emptiness is and so forth. I am really not well enough studied to know how Tsongkhapa taught emptiness but when hearing his ideas I can't but help wonder if they are right. Also he seems to have a knack for putting his own personal spin on the things- the teachings which could confuse students. And by the way, last time I saw Roach was broken up from his girlfriend and this was published in the nypost..

http://www.nypost.com/pagesixmag/issues ... hael+Roach


a sad state of affairs indeed I wish that guy had just stayed more loyal to the teachings he could be a wealth of knowledge for the western world and he is obviously a talented and smart man.. just kind of worried about him pulling a jim jones or something...


But I think the most simple answer is to look towards non-controversial Lamas who are pure holders of pure lineage, --and look to them with devotion.


Excellent post Adamantine.
With so many excellent legitimate teachers out there to choose from I am always baffled as to why people would even take the risk with people like Roach and others.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:48 pm 
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There was a way to access the directory of posts at e-sangha but I am unsure how..


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Nangwa wrote:
With so many excellent legitimate teachers out there to choose from I am always baffled as to why people would even take the risk with people like Roach and others.

Earlier in his life Michael Roach did a lot of good for the dharma and helped many people. Then things got very weird and now it looks like he has done enormous harm. I think it's incredibly sad but there are important lessons to be learned - take the time to check a persons inner qualities before elevating them to the status of guru and be suspicious of those who make claims about their spiritual attainments.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:28 am 
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found it:

http://web.archive.org/web/200606132327 ... opic=31179


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:13 am 
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tamdrin wrote:


I don't think that's the thread I was referring to... what's more, I couldn't even get to the second page, it said there was a server error

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:43 am 
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Whoa, tamdrin how did you extract that E-sangha thread? I've been wondering how to go back and look at various threads and have never been able to figure it out! Never was much of a hacker.

Any tips appreciated.

Sorry to derail this thread..


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