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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:18 pm 
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ok so like some patriotic kid joins and goes to one of America's wars, or to be fair is Canadian and does what he country tells him to do...go to one of america's wars...

they kill and maim....

Is their karma any less due to patriotic duty...

I don't think so...

Donovan had thoughts on such...have a listen...very very appropriate...Buddhists are mentioned by the way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC9pc4U40sI

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:20 pm 
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Donovan / Universal Soldier Lyrics



He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.

He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Yes, I believe the karma of killing has consequences for them and for others, and is of the nature of suffering.

Often forgotten, but I believe that killers should not be excluded from our compassion.

That's a simplistic view, but each killing will have a context which will affect how it may be viewed.

An example: Killling an enemy soldier who is about to detonate a huge bomb which would kill all the civilians gathered in a local hall. Killing the enemy soldier prevents him from the karma of killling all those people and also saves their lives. I've no idea how that would play out in terms of consequences.

I have a friend who was in the Falklands war. He has PTSD from being in an explosion etc. but most of all from being faced with the enemy shooting at him. As he shot them he noticed that they were Argentinian children in this 'kill or be killed' fire-fight. Is he suffering now - yes, every day and every night og regret, horror and nightmare flashbacks. Will he suffer in future lives? I don't know, but it is likely that he may arrive there having added suicide to his killing.

I believe all beings deserve compassion, and I also believe that Buddhists have no monopoly on compassion, even though we may interpret that word differently.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:46 pm 
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Rael wrote:
Is their karma any less due to patriotic duty...


Yes it is lessened but it is still negative. War is a kind of hell realm.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:00 am 
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Greetings Rael,

Rael wrote:
Donovan / Universal Soldier Lyrics

Well, actually, it was Buffy Sainte-Marie's song originally... Donovan just covered it.

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:42 am 
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I belief from my current awareness , In Buddha we have to aware of our own action so that we will not regret it in future . I belief whatever we do if we do it after knowing our Buddha at that particular awareness we will never regretted it and if so then we could move on .
In Buddha I belief no action including killing is wrong or right simplily is all depand on own awareness . For example many years ago , I like fishing. At that time my awareness does not indicate to me that my action is wrong but now after I moved to different awareness I of the opinion that I must not enjoy fishing , if for food I could accept but if I still have fun from that action in my current awareness ,ignor my understanding of Buddha surely one day I will regret my action .
In Buddha I belief I will rectify my own mistake on my own will and this will delays my purification process .


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:03 am 
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Soldiers who kill will suffer in this life and will experience terrible sufferings once "their" tainted aggregates have disintegrated.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:06 am 
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CSEe wrote:
In Buddha I belief no action including killing is wrong or right simplily is all depand on own awareness . For example many years ago , I like fishing.

Not right or wrong, but ignorance (of the Bodhidharma) causes volitional action (eg,fishing or soldiery) which causes suffering. This is called dependent co-arising as I'm sure you are aware and is the basis of Buddhist teaching.

I'm pretty sure that killing on the battle field is creating very bad Karma and will produce in its turn very bad Vipāka no matter how noble the soldier.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:17 am 
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KwanSeum wrote:
CSEe wrote:
In Buddha I belief no action including killing is wrong or right simplily is all depand on own awareness . For example many years ago , I like fishing.

Not right or wrong, but ignorance (of the Bodhidharma) causes volitional action (eg,fishing or soldiery) which causes suffering. This is called dependent co-arising as I'm sure you are aware and is the basis of Buddhist teaching.

I'm pretty sure that killing on the battle field is creating very bad Karma and will produce in its turn very bad Vipāka no matter how noble the soldier.


Hi KwanSeum , .
I Buddha I belief I will ( in life or afterlife ) aware of my own action and if my action is done against my own awareness at that point of time just to fulfill my desire / ego , I will regret it and will change / rectify it to satisfy my awareness .
In search of Buddha , I belief I will clean my own rubbish for myself by my own way after I moved to higher awareness .

thanks for sharing .


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:33 am 
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retrofuturist wrote:
Greetings Rael,

Rael wrote:
Donovan / Universal Soldier Lyrics

Well, actually, it was Buffy Sainte-Marie's song originally... Donovan just covered it.

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)


thanks...did not know that...
i'm a semi fan of buffy...

stay away from the cities stay away from the towns stay away from the man pushing the codeine around,,,,

i used to eat a lot of codeine and a friend bought me that song in the seventies...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:38 am 
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CSEe wrote:
In search of Buddha , I belief I will clean my own rubbish for myself by my own way after I moved to higher awareness .

thanks for sharing .

I've been reading some of your stuff...hi....

i don't think you really care about buddha...it's like some word you use in this forum to talk about your own self cleaning action...

why not just say what you want...no one will ban you for it...

your like some kid i used to know terrified he would say one thing and really want to say something else...

anyways i enjoy what ever it is your doing...im the resident fake psychiatric electrician.......

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:26 am 
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Rael wrote:
CSEe wrote:
In search of Buddha , I belief I will clean my own rubbish for myself by my own way after I moved to higher awareness .

thanks for sharing .

I've been reading some of your stuff...hi....

i don't think you really care about buddha...it's like some word you use in this forum to talk about your own self cleaning action...

why not just say what you want...no one will ban you for it...

your like some kid i used to know terrified he would say one thing and really want to say something else...

anyways i enjoy what ever it is your doing...im the resident fake psychiatric electrician.......



Dear sir ,
After reading reply from Mr piwk , I am now aware that my views will receive this kind of respond . I am sorry if my writing offended you in any possible way .

Sir , why makes you to believe that I dont care about Buddha ? I belief in Buddha is emptiness if I found something there that is not Buddha , that is me-the poluttant .
Sir , I believe in search of Buddha we are judge by our awareness not knowledge not age not experience . So yes i agree with you maybe in search of Buddha I am still a "kid" .

This is becouse I cant fight my desire for good or bad ,still have emotion , still have love , still have ego, still cry for joy or sorrow , eventhought I might understand Buddha but at current awareness I still too far from that energy .
Learning / knowing Buddha is fun and joy.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:28 pm 
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CSEe wrote:
Rael wrote:
CSEe wrote:
In search of Buddha , I belief I will clean my own rubbish for myself by my own way after I moved to higher awareness .

thanks for sharing .

I've been reading some of your stuff...hi....

i don't think you really care about buddha...it's like some word you use in this forum to talk about your own self cleaning action...

why not just say what you want...no one will ban you for it...

your like some kid i used to know terrified he would say one thing and really want to say something else...

anyways i enjoy what ever it is your doing...im the resident fake psychiatric electrician.......



Dear sir ,
After reading reply from Mr piwk , I am now aware that my views will receive this kind of respond . I am sorry if my writing offended you in any possible way .

Sir , why makes you to believe that I dont care about Buddha ? I belief in Buddha is emptiness if I found something there that is not Buddha , that is me-the poluttant .
Sir , I believe in search of Buddha we are judge by our awareness not knowledge not age not experience . So yes i agree with you maybe in search of Buddha I am still a "kid" .

This is becouse I cant fight my desire for good or bad ,still have emotion , still have love , still have ego, still cry for joy or sorrow , eventhought I might understand Buddha but at current awareness I still too far from that energy .
Learning / knowing Buddha is fun and joy.

i wasn't insulting you...

but your knowledge of Buddhism seems to be just putting the words "search for Buddha " in front of a post and then go on to say some valid and interesting things.... things about your self cleansing and awareness...

see that i used the the word valid...in regards to your telling us where you head is at on such things you do ,after inserting the words "search for Buddha"....
:anjali:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:28 pm 
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Not only do they accumulate negative karma (though I suppose less of it if their intentions are "pure", on the other hand I doubt how much intentions one can have in a war, more likely it's just kill or be killed) but as far as I understand also the people who support their actions accumulate the same karma. So if someone supports war he might as well be pulling the trigger himself.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:18 am 
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Why would "patriotic duty" in any way lessen the impact of their actions?

Is patriotism Dharmic activity? NO! Is it a form of delusion based on the dualism of (a collective) self versus (a collective) other? YES!

So it's an action based on wrong view. And we know that killing, while immersed in delusion, leads to rebirth in the animal realms.

See here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Quite clear really.
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:10 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Why would "patriotic duty" in any way lessen the impact of their actions?

Is patriotism Dharmic activity? NO! Is it a form of delusion based on the dualism of (a collective) self versus (a collective) other? YES!


:namaste:

I inserted the words patriotic duty for this sort of reaction...

thanks for the link...

try asking this same question on an american Christian site... :woohoo:

i did and was quite surprised at the zeal they protect their Christian brothers and sisters killing and maiming their way to salvation....

Jesus offered the other cheek
the early martyrs went to their death, sometimes horrendously , rather than give in.....

now it's ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDDy6qXIWC8

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