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Dependent Origination - Dhamma Wheel

Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:41 pm

There seems to be two different understandings of Dependent Origination. One of it being a Three lifes model that can explain rebirth without a permanent self and the other that it does not cover three lives and instead it covers birth of an "I" at every moment and not a rebirth model.

My current opinion it that it could be interpreted as both. Everyday language for the rebirth side and dhamma language for the the view that it covers moments not physical lifetimes so both are equally valid just different in realities

Just wanted to get a discussion going on it as it is an important teaching of Lord Buddha:

"He who sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma, and he who sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination"
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meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby meindzai » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:16 pm

The description of D.O. that appears in the suttas certainly refers to the three lifetime model, as words like "Death" and "Birth" are pretty unambiguous:

"The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body — this is called death."

"The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth." - Sammaditthi Sutta

There's nothing ambiguously metaphorical about it either. Bhikkhu Bodhi pointed out, in his discussion of this Sutta, that when the Buddha spoke in metaphors he was usually explicit about it. We tend not to find anything metaphorical in the Suttas without the Buddha either saying "this is a metaphor for such and such" or using phrases "like" and "as."

There are descriptions as D.O. in mind states that I believe show up in Abhidhamma. But they do not preclude the 3 lifetimes model.

-M

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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:32 pm

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:12 pm

haha i just started this thread!!!

can it be deleted?

this too
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:15 pm

i dont buy the 3 lifetimes thing, at least not as a hard and fast rule.

from what i've seen the buddha doesnt teach it as taking 3 life times, he mentions rebirth in your quote but not 3 lives.

if kamma has to ripen over 3 lives it becomes impossible to achieve liberation since youre never done in this life time, there's always one more......
Last edited by jcsuperstar on Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:18 pm

I see Dependent Origination and emptiness as the same thing.

:namaste:
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Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:21 pm


Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:28 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:30 pm

That does tie into when i said it can be explained using dhamma language, but can D.O. be used correctly with the three lives model as well?

There are many instances where the buddha uses terms such as "their decent into the womb" for birth. It confuses me why buddha would use everyday language while talking about D.O to bhikkhus unless it can be taking as D.O. being viable as a model for moment to moment birth of "I" and dukkha and the three lives model.
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Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:32 pm

Last edited by Element on Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:36 pm

[quote="Element"]Similarly, in the and in the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta, the Buddha states if dependent origination is discerned, there will be no "I making" and "my making" regarding the past, future or present.

It can also be said that there can be no "I" making when one looks at it via the thre lives model as well.

Im kinda playing devils advocate here really as to me at the moment both seem viable, the non-three lives model more important though.
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Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:41 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:44 pm

So do you agree with me that both ways of looking at it are ok?

My main reason for this topic is to find out why there seems to be a clash between what is the right way to view D.O.
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Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:55 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:56 pm

I agree with you here.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:01 am

Last edited by Cittasanto on Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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clw_uk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:02 am

I agree with you as well, but the buddha also said in suttas

"What, bhikkhus, is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, their break up, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the break up of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death."

It is hard to read this in dhamma language terms and can be seen to only explain the usual physical ageing and dying. To my knowledge he says this to bhikkhus not to laypersons.
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Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:05 am


Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Postby Element » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:09 am



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