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Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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clw_uk
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:15 pm

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clw_uk
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:34 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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clw_uk
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:27 pm

Good video related to the topic here






Worth a watch

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mikenz66
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:35 pm


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christopher:::
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:26 am

Are any of you familiar with Systems science concepts such as self-organization, self-construction, autopoiesis, etc? Chaos theory also relates here, the butterfly effect and such. This is where my interest and studies lie, primarily. I studied Developmental Systems Theory in grad school and apply it constantly in my field, of education and language learning. And unlike physics, where one does need advanced study I think to comprehend many things, systems concepts are more like dharma concepts, something any intelligent person can grasp, imo. You don't need to have a grad school background to understand these concepts, imo, unless you're focused on taking a mathematical approach.

Anyway, the interesting riddle with systems properties is the same with what I was saying about physics. Why does the Universe work this way, how or why are these set laws or principles in place? Cause these properties and principles are universal, they apply to systems of all sizes, from cells to organisms, ecosystems, economic systems, biospheres, solar systems and galaxies. They swirl, self-organize, self-construct, are interdependent, complex systems.

A God or Universal Mind is one possible explanation for why our cosmos works this way. It lies outside Science, surely, but it's still a logical idea, imo. It could also be that our Universe is the child of an earlier Universe, and that Universes themselves evolved over time and that's why our Universe is so fine-tuned. Or perhaps there is Intelligence or Wisdom of sorts in the Field of Energy/Matter from which all forms emerge. We could call this Dharma Nature, Dharmakaya or Tao. It need not be an Intelligence that observes, and isn't Dharma a form of wisdom that is Universal?

Isn't our Universe, with all its compounded systems, an expression of Dharma, from a Buddhist point of view?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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mikenz66
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:48 am


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:35 am

Hi Mike. I cannot say how useful systems concepts are in your field, but they definitely are helpful in many fields. Just recognizing that compounded systems work in certain ways helps out a lot i think, whether you're a teacher, parent, economist, office manager, environmental engineer, doctor, band manager, online forum moderator or computer systems engineer. People working with alternative energy systems may be able to benefit by studying the natural energy utilization systems of plants, for example.

My own opinion is that its very useful to make students aware of systems properties. Here's a handout I give to my classes when we study the environmental problems humans are facing now. It helps put everything into a larger context, framework.

ChristophersSystemsScience.jpg
ChristophersSystemsScience.jpg (268.02 KiB) Viewed 719 times


One of my interests is in finding ways to help people break out of dualistic and compartmentalized ways of thinking. Once you become aware of all the various systems in the world, how they are connected, how they work, one can create a unified visual model of everything that exists, that can assist with problem solving...

And is also kind of cool to contemplate.

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am


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clw_uk
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:37 am

You dont explain anything with a God or universal mind because you are left with explaining that



The video above makes a good point


Lets say that life on earth was created by an intelligent alien species from another planet, that may explain how life came to be on earth but you havent solved much since you then have to explain how that alien species came to be in order to seed life on earth, if you say they were seeded by aliens themselves then you have to explain those aliens that created the aliens that created life on earth


Putting an intelligence behind something doesnt explain that much at all

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:45 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:12 am


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:14 am

Most people that I have met, or read, who pondered the Universe deeply come eventually to that same conclusion. Not of Buddhism, but of a very Mysterious Reality. The Native American Indians used terms such as Great Spirit and Great Mystery interchangably. I am not trying to "layer things over" with a God notion or Universal Mind concept.

I haven't been sharing all these ideas to try and convince you to give up the beliefs and ideas that make the most sense to you, but rather to try and point out that different conceptions can be highly meaningful, and even very helpful, for others. I don't have an expectation that everyone in the world will see things the same way, and so have great respect for the variety. People of various faiths go for refuge in different ways. If someone finds comfort and guidance by believing in a higher power, God bless em, lol.

No offense, but what I sense at times in your posts, Tilt, as well as those of a few others here, is a lack of respect for how others view the world, for the spiritual beliefs of others. That's fine, actually. We all have different backgrounds. You said I think that you were raised Roman Catholic and used to believe in God. That has probably effected how you view Christianity. No one can force you to respect the views and beliefs of others and we all should be able to speak freely.

I feel differently, however, and was raised differently. My parents were agnostic, and I was raised as a Unitarian Universalist. I had some brief periods where God made sense to me as a concept, but those were fleeting. But when I see variety in spiritual beliefs, it all looks fine to me. Like flowers in fields, animals in a forest. Variety is one of the manifestations of Life, of the Great Mystery.

:namaste:

"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle.

It was the experience of mystery-- even if mixed with fear-- that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-- it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature."


~Albert Einstein
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:30 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:33 pm


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:02 pm

I started to respond to you in detail Tilt, but I really don't know what to say. I've tried to show there are other ways of conceptualizing God, but you simply dismiss those as well.

If this is not intolerance of other's belief, then I am in error.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:10 pm


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Individual » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:20 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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chicka-Dee
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby chicka-Dee » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:48 pm

Last edited by chicka-Dee on Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby chicka-Dee » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:03 pm


mindfullmom
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby mindfullmom » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:49 pm

Each time a thread appears on this topic it ends up going on for miles and miles. I think it's a wonderful example of our collective conscious EVOLVING forward in an effort to CREATE something new. I chose those words carefully as I have been condititioned (up to this moment) to believe that creationism and evolution are one in the same. They are both empty of a separate existence aren't they?

If god created the universe, who created god? And if the big bang created the universe, what created the big bang? Isn't this emptiness at its best? Or is my understanding off?

I agree when the Buddha says that sometimes we are asking the wrong question. I can't find the story but it is about the man struck with an arrow and as he lays there bleeding to death, he demands to know from which direction the arrow was shot, what it was made of, how fast it was travelling, etc. While all that is being investigated, he dies because he does nothing to tend to the wound. Isn't that what we are doing here? There is suffering (the arrow) and then more suffering created from the first suffering (death from the arrow). Since there doesn't seem to be any way to really know either way, why not focus ourselves on the present moment, on the breath, on the rise and fall?

I agree with Chickadee. Our understanding of interconnectedness (emptiness) is the key to it all. We may know it on an intellectual level but do we know it in the way we think, speak and act? And we all arrive at it in different ways. The linear thinker might want to pull apart the whole and separate it out into little "bits and pieces" (like quantum physics) and in doing so may penetrate the true nature of reality. The global thinker might not need to do that and might find analyzing systems a better way to see our interconnectedness. Either way you have made it there. Our schools and our workplaces compartmentalize because there is a need to do so, imo. There is so much to learn and so much to know, we have to start somewhere. It's up to each one of us to pursue a more global view indivdually whether we are talking about school subjects or work skills.

But I went off topic. Don't most religions believe that god is in us, we are in god? I'm not of the belief that a personal god exists, but isn't that the same as emptiness? :shrug:

And I would like to thank all of you here, as a result of reading this thread I am now different then I was before and you are all part of me now :bow:


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