Rebirth and endless time

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:04 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:I never once said what you were talking about.

All the best,

Geoff



Yeshe D. wrote:What is dangerous is not understanding the two truths and thereby mistaking deluded cognitions for liberation.

All the best,

Geoff


*coughs*
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Jnana » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:05 pm

Rael wrote:
Yeshe D. wrote:I never once said what you were talking about.

All the best,

Geoff



Yeshe D. wrote:What is dangerous is not understanding the two truths and thereby mistaking deluded cognitions for liberation.

All the best,

Geoff


*coughs*

There is no reference whatsoever to you in that reply.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:08 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
Rael wrote:I would like to know why you are saying he implies that Yogacara and Madhyamaka are duhka????

It's quite clear from the context of his above post and previous posts on this thread and other threads. In reply to a statement directly referencing Mādhyamaka he states that philosophical views -- here implying that Mādhyamaka is merely a philosophical view -- are a burden to be abandoned. His reply is a paraphrase of Āgama statements referring to the gratification, drawbacks, and escape from the clinging aggregates (upādānaskandhas). And the clinging aggregates are duḥkha. On other threads such as this one he has stated that Yogācāra is "speculation" and "mental proliferation" and "unskillful view," and that the Mahāyāna commentaries are "the effect of clinging aggregates." All of these quips are nonsense.



All the best,

Geoff


Ok like i'm not going to go through thread after thread ...
And I did not realize you were talking to him about a series of discussion you had with him...

i apologize.....

i just could not fathom where you got Duhkha from this thread...lol...

and I projected what you did to me ...

again i apologize and will take your word for it....
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:10 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
Rael wrote:
Yeshe D. wrote:I never once said what you were talking about.

All the best,

Geoff



Yeshe D. wrote:What is dangerous is not understanding the two truths and thereby mistaking deluded cognitions for liberation.

All the best,

Geoff


*coughs*

There is no reference whatsoever to you in that reply.

All the best,

Geoff


ok i apologize....

i read it differently...

but for the sake of the benefit of the doubt and sometimes what this medium does to debate....

i apologize.....
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Jnana » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:16 pm

Rael wrote:i read it differently...

Okay. No need to apologize.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:27 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
Rael wrote:i read it differently...

Okay. No need to apologize.

All the best,

Geoff


well i think it is appropriate...

I did get annoyed and posted it publically...

This medium has it's drawbacks....

politeness is mandatory for it to work...
by the way...i do enjoy you...

then all of a sudden in the past few days i see you as trolling...

a few posts misread and voila....

so apologies are important.

cheers
r
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby ground » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:14 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Your insistence may be clinging to views.

No insistence. Just a full embrace. The Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra:

    Lord, the bodhisattva mahāsattva who is uncertain about the Mahāyāna becomes averse to embracing the Illustrious Doctrine and is occupied with his own fancy; he reaps the fortune of entering the stage of the spiritually immature ordinary person. Lord, this I see to be a great disadvantage and harm. Lord, I foresee the perfection of aim yielding incalculable benefit for myself and future bodhisattvas through embracing the Illustrious Doctrine; and so I take this vow to embrace the Illustrious Doctrine.


I do not hold the view that Mahayana necessitates holding views that I consider to be philosophical views. Holding philosophical views may be widespread in Mahayana but so is delusion in the world therefore "being widespread" is no mark of right view.


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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby CSEe » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:49 am

I belief all living /non-living in this entire universe is moving / changing shapes / to be stable / under-go purification process - to be pure /free from all pollutant ..to be Buddha .

Human have pollutant call life and we will der-go - purification process of birth/death/re-birth until we free from all desire of good and bad , of same and equal , free of all desire and empty .

As what Siddharta's search - Sincere good act will lead us to Buddha , bad act or low awareness act will divert us from Buddha .

Time is never exist in buddha each of us -living/non-living will have our own purification process in our own way / our own speed by our own awareness to be pure , to be empty , to be Buddha .

as I maybe need a trillions "purification process " but maybe you need a few is all up to our own awareness .

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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:12 pm

Rael wrote:
thanks for reminded me about the Buddha... :smile:

I don't dispute that the teachings are timeless in the sense of validity...and that no matter how "Modern" the world becomes..lol...they still hold the key to liberation...

I might have read something more in your statement , and was trying to convey something from a past convo years back elsewhere...sorry if i jumped all over your eloquence...

People try to interpret the Buddha's words and impose scientific modern theories on them...i just did in another thread
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3156&p=25574#p25574

The Buddha chose that time and place to plant the seeds of His Medicine...It was a time when science did not exist...there must be a reason ...and why the need do people find to interpret modern day science into it....

thats the essence of my intent...and yet i did it in the thread mentioned...


cheers and sorry if i come across as an arrogant ass at times....and jump on people's eloquence..


There is something called the Filosophy of Science, it investigates the question "What is science ?" It is highly interesting and an important field of philosophy.
Then there is an aspect in Buddha's teaching that is called "Inviting to investigate (its validity)", so there is something similar in the scientific approach to knowledge with the buddhist approach to knowledge.
You don't have to believe Dharma indefinitely long, after a time you should know it for yourself, that is a traditional teaching of Buddha. Do you see the similarity?
Ofcourse there are still many problematic questions in this field, but that is definitely a common ground.
Have you read about the filosophy of science? In Science too you have belief, no one can deny that.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:08 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Rael wrote:
thanks for reminded me about the Buddha... :smile:

I don't dispute that the teachings are timeless in the sense of validity...and that no matter how "Modern" the world becomes..lol...they still hold the key to liberation...

I might have read something more in your statement , and was trying to convey something from a past convo years back elsewhere...sorry if i jumped all over your eloquence...

People try to interpret the Buddha's words and impose scientific modern theories on them...i just did in another thread
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=3156&p=25574#p25574

The Buddha chose that time and place to plant the seeds of His Medicine...It was a time when science did not exist...there must be a reason ...and why the need do people find to interpret modern day science into it....

thats the essence of my intent...and yet i did it in the thread mentioned...


cheers and sorry if i come across as an arrogant ass at times....and jump on people's eloquence..


There is something called the Filosophy of Science, it investigates the question "What is science ?" It is highly interesting and an important field of philosophy.
Then there is an aspect in Buddha's teaching that is called "Inviting to investigate (its validity)", so there is something similar in the scientific approach to knowledge with the buddhist approach to knowledge.
You don't have to believe Dharma indefinitely long, after a time you should know it for yourself, that is a traditional teaching of Buddha. Do you see the similarity?
Ofcourse there are still many problematic questions in this field, but that is definitely a common ground.
Have you read about the filosophy of science? In Science too you have belief, no one can deny that.


i can't google filosophy of science...link please...ugh the dreaded asking for a link and googleing...

first up i like science , though not a scientist. I try to understand the different physic theories that are available to read..

I got excited about quantum physics and string theory....

I belong to a few alchemy sites and thats a whole other field where Science and the lab is the way to enlightenment. They also work with the "Inner Alchemy" of humans not unlike completion stage practices....they combine both...as we develope our inner temple the temple in the lab work refines....

it boils down to :offtopic: each lab exercise is never the same for each person doing it, due to it being an art..
the results though obviously similar are never exactly the same....like a guitar in the hands of different people...the same guitar and the same chord sounds a little different in the hands of each person...hence thats why it is an art...

People crop up there from time to time that are Mahayanist and tantric practitioners like myself....

It's always a stretch when "we" try and interpret the sutras into modern day science...

Yes i believe the Buddha knew the three times and what was taking place far into the future....

i heard somewhere that Shambala is some uber futuristic place where science and Dharma are one...maybe it's not Shambala...but it is the opposite of that Potala Island where Tara dwells and all is nature and beauty....memory is crappolla these days for some odd reason.....

there is a , even though i do not believe it to be really the Buddha's words, a verse in the Lotus Sutra predicting a time when everything moves like the wheel and ....ok my memory went on the blink...something that sounds like or alludes to planes...people move through the sky with a loud thunder....bad memory of the second words...but everything moving like the wheel is a direct translation.....

anyway...it's a stretch....getting hung up on it is not my cuppa anymore....

hence my statement that there might be a reason for the Buddha coming in the time he did and teaching in a time where there is no science....


am i scolding everyone or telling them interpretive time spent in this matter is bad....nope!...just my two cents on the matter....
for me it no longer holds my interest to meld the two....
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:38 pm

Rael wrote:i can't google filosophy of science...link please...ugh the dreaded asking for a link and googleing...

first up i like science , though not a scientist. I try to understand the different physic theories that are available to read..

I got excited about quantum physics and string theory....

I belong to a few alchemy sites and thats a whole other field where Science and the lab is the way to enlightenment. They also work with the "Inner Alchemy" of humans not unlike completion stage practices....they combine both...as we develope our inner temple the temple in the lab work refines....

it boils down to :offtopic: each lab exercise is never the same for each person doing it, due to it being an art..
the results though obviously similar are never exactly the same....like a guitar in the hands of different people...the same guitar and the same chord sounds a little different in the hands of each person...hence thats why it is an art...

People crop up there from time to time that are Mahayanist and tantric practitioners like myself....

It's always a stretch when "we" try and interpret the sutras into modern day science...

Yes i believe the Buddha knew the three times and what was taking place far into the future....

i heard somewhere that Shambala is some uber futuristic place where science and Dharma are one...maybe it's not Shambala...but it is the opposite of that Potala Island where Tara dwells and all is nature and beauty....memory is crappolla these days for some odd reason.....

there is a , even though i do not believe it to be really the Buddha's words, a verse in the Lotus Sutra predicting a time when everything moves like the wheel and ....ok my memory went on the blink...something that sounds like or alludes to planes...people move through the sky with a loud thunder....bad memory of the second words...but everything moving like the wheel is a direct translation.....

anyway...it's a stretch....getting hung up on it is not my cuppa anymore....

hence my statement that there might be a reason for the Buddha coming in the time he did and teaching in a time where there is no science....


am i scolding everyone or telling them interpretive time spent in this matter is bad....nope!...just my two cents on the matter....
for me it no longer holds my interest to meld the two....


Buddha defined Dharma as "that which is true", or just "the Truth".
Thus it is the same as the the aim of science, i.e. to find the objective truth.
Because there was Buddha there is now science. It is a logical consequence, a natural development of Buddha's teaching.
Here is something about the Philosophy of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_science
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:00 pm

A totally different culture and circumstance and manner of thought produced Science....

trying to lay claim to science from a Buddhist standpoint is lame and inaccurate.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:38 pm

Rael wrote:A totally different culture and circumstance and manner of thought produced Science....

trying to lay claim to science from a Buddhist standpoint is lame and inaccurate.


But that is exactly what many people have felt it to be. Ofcourse Buddhism exists now as a religion. If you make a thorough study of the Tripitaka and the Sutta Pitakas, you maybe can understand the reason for this claim.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:47 pm

Rael wrote:A totally different culture and circumstance and manner of thought produced Science....

trying to lay claim to science from a Buddhist standpoint is lame and inaccurate.


What you are refering to? You must not confuse technology with science, or with the scientific method!
Here are some good articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Tashi Nyima » Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:58 pm

Time is a mental construct --it does not exist inherently. It is a function of attention. When we focus our attention on objects or events in a particular sequence, we construct a timeline. However, that timeline only reflects our process and order of perception. It does not necessarily coincide with reality.

For example, when two people argue or fight, each typically will be under the impression that 'the other one started it'. Are they lying to themselves, as well as others? Some may be, but most are sincerely reporting what they have perceived. In their private experience, the initial event in this particular sequence was an offense by the other party.

This happens not only with individuals, but also with groups of people. Taking the above example, we can apply it to nations. Each party to a war usually sees itself as the victim of an earlier act of aggression by the other party. Are they wrong? That is how they perceive it.

Any question about 'before' or 'after' is a logical trap. From the point of view of the Buddhas, there is nothing but Pure Self, and material existence never was, is not, and never will be. From the point of view of ordinary beings, material existence always was, is now, and forever will be. They are perspectives.

Ordinary beings have accumulated karma for countless lives. Some of this karma is shared with others, and some is private. For example, environmental conditions are shared experience, but our individual feelings about these conditions are private.

Those beings who occupy a particular realm or state of existence (for example, we are now in the human realm) have similar collective karma. It is that karma that gives rise to the environmental conditions, including all non-animate objects in our experience.

Philosophical speculation is merely a way of explaining to ourselves aspects of conventional reality that are necessarily beyond our grasp. Why? The part cannot apprehend the whole; the small cannot contain the large. Because our minds themselves are part of this conventional reality, it is not possible for our mental faculties to apprehend it in its totality. Try as we might, we can never squeeze Dallas into Tahlequah, or New York City into Dallas, or Mexico City into New York.

The Buddha refused to answer a set of fourteen 'philosophical' questions --not because He could not answer them, but because such considerations do not help (and may hinder) our spiritual cultivation.

He told the parable of the man who was wounded with a poisoned arrow, and needed to have the arrow tip removed and the poison extracted immediately, or else he would die. A skilled physician was ready and able to perform the procedure, but the man would not allow it unless the doctor first explained in detail who had shot the arrow and what was his clan and rank; what wood was used for the shaft, what feathers for the fletch, and what metal for the tip of the arrow; how far and in what trajectory the arrow had traveled; what kind and amount of poison was on the tip; and so forth. The man died.

Some questions can be distracting us from what is essential: there is suffering, there is a cause of suffering, there can be cessation to suffering, and there is a path to cessation. When we are moving swiftly along that path, we will see everything more clearly.

Arguing about the infinity of time and the number of sentient beings, while our very bodies are failing us, is like the proverbial rearranging of the furniture on the sinking Titanic.

May all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering!
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:47 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Rael wrote:A totally different culture and circumstance and manner of thought produced Science....

trying to lay claim to science from a Buddhist standpoint is lame and inaccurate.


What you are refering to? You must not confuse technology with science, or with the scientific method!
Here are some good articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science


As I stated Science as we know developed in Europe.

Some of us also believe it to have started here...But this includes Holy Inner Alchemy soooo it's not exactly Kosher for some...lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism


Nowhere in India did we have what we call science going on....
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:51 pm

Tashi Nyima wrote:Time is a mental construct --it does not exist inherently. It is a function of attention. When we focus our attention on objects or events in a particular sequence, we construct a timeline. However, that timeline only reflects our process and order of perception. It does not necessarily coincide with reality.

For example, when two people argue or fight, each typically will be under the impression that 'the other one started it'. Are they lying to themselves, as well as others? Some may be, but most are sincerely reporting what they have perceived. In their private experience, the initial event in this particular sequence was an offense by the other party.

This happens not only with individuals, but also with groups of people. Taking the above example, we can apply it to nations. Each party to a war usually sees itself as the victim of an earlier act of aggression by the other party. Are they wrong? That is how they perceive it.

Any question about 'before' or 'after' is a logical trap. From the point of view of the Buddhas, there is nothing but Pure Self, and material existence never was, is not, and never will be. From the point of view of ordinary beings, material existence always was, is now, and forever will be. They are perspectives.

Ordinary beings have accumulated karma for countless lives. Some of this karma is shared with others, and some is private. For example, environmental conditions are shared experience, but our individual feelings about these conditions are private.

Those beings who occupy a particular realm or state of existence (for example, we are now in the human realm) have similar collective karma. It is that karma that gives rise to the environmental conditions, including all non-animate objects in our experience.

Philosophical speculation is merely a way of explaining to ourselves aspects of conventional reality that are necessarily beyond our grasp. Why? The part cannot apprehend the whole; the small cannot contain the large. Because our minds themselves are part of this conventional reality, it is not possible for our mental faculties to apprehend it in its totality. Try as we might, we can never squeeze Dallas into Tahlequah, or New York City into Dallas, or Mexico City into New York.

The Buddha refused to answer a set of fourteen 'philosophical' questions --not because He could not answer them, but because such considerations do not help (and may hinder) our spiritual cultivation.

He told the parable of the man who was wounded with a poisoned arrow, and needed to have the arrow tip removed and the poison extracted immediately, or else he would die. A skilled physician was ready and able to perform the procedure, but the man would not allow it unless the doctor first explained in detail who had shot the arrow and what was his clan and rank; what wood was used for the shaft, what feathers for the fletch, and what metal for the tip of the arrow; how far and in what trajectory the arrow had traveled; what kind and amount of poison was on the tip; and so forth. The man died.

Some questions can be distracting us from what is essential: there is suffering, there is a cause of suffering, there can be cessation to suffering, and there is a path to cessation. When we are moving swiftly along that path, we will see everything more clearly.

Arguing about the infinity of time and the number of sentient beings, while our very bodies are failing us, is like the proverbial rearranging of the furniture on the sinking Titanic.

May all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering!

:good:
nice...
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:54 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Rael wrote:A totally different culture and circumstance and manner of thought produced Science....

trying to lay claim to science from a Buddhist standpoint is lame and inaccurate.


But that is exactly what many people have felt it to be. Ofcourse Buddhism exists now as a religion. If you make a thorough study of the Tripitaka and the Sutta Pitakas, you maybe can understand the reason for this claim.


Look i tried myself and for years tried to lay the same claims...

it doesn't do anyone any good and is not accurate or even remotely the Buddha's intention...
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Aemilius » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:33 pm

Rael wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Rael wrote:A totally different culture and circumstance and manner of thought produced Science....

trying to lay claim to science from a Buddhist standpoint is lame and inaccurate.


What you are refering to? You must not confuse technology with science, or with the scientific method!
Here are some good articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science


As I stated Science as we know developed in Europe.

Some of us also believe it to have started here...But this includes Holy Inner Alchemy soooo it's not exactly Kosher for some...lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism


Nowhere in India did we have what we call science going on....


Please don't ignore the facts! It is a well known fact that medieval Europe got mathematics & other sciences from the islamic world, even the greek ideas were reintroduced to Europe through arabic world, etc...
And please look again what it says about the History of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science Truth is the opposite of what you say.
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Re: Rebirth and endless time

Postby Rael » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:15 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Please don't ignore the facts! It is a well known fact that medieval Europe got mathematics & other sciences from the islamic world, even the greek ideas were reintroduced to Europe through arabic world, etc...
And please look again what it says about the History of Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science Truth is the opposite of what you say.



Islam is only about 750 years old....The actual religion and belief that God gave the Quran to someone is totally unscientific. Islam is not Science as well...ROFL!!! Islam gave nothing to science...


Mathematics per say is not really Science , but yes some would argue it is.

The early Greek philosophers known as Pre-socratics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Socratic_philosophy
gave the west the foundations for their philosophy, religion, and the sciences.

I think instead of the word Science you should use Epistemology...lol....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology


psuedo science abounds ....and trying to meld Buddha's words and science is just not going to wash with me...ANYMORE...for like i said i did at one time....

Please for the sake of decent debate...could you show us some science in Buddhism.
Actual Science.

Then if you so wish, some Science that came from ancient India or the pre islamic arab world, besides Math...
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