Cops raid at the Karmapas office

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby narraboth » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:50 pm

For the story itself, I am totally for Karmapa.
If you have ever been in Gyuto, you will know how many foreigners go there everyday. It's not surprising at all that the police found 20 different currencies there. 10% of it is RMB (Chinese currency), is it strange? I think 10% is too small percentage! Do you know how many Karmapa followers are there in China (Chinese and Tibetan)?
About Indian law... do Indian themselves strictly follow their law? The law forbid foreigners to buy Indian land. Then how Tibetan got all their temples built in India? Indian government doesn't allow foreign currencies donations to be saved in bank accounts without permission, then whatelse people can do beside keeping cash?

There is a saying: 'if you really want to make someone guilty, you can always find something to accuse.'
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:28 pm

Sherabpa said:
BTW I think its a bit lame (and rather racist) to cast the entire Indian press as 'biased'.


Okay, fair enough. I've yet to see a story from the Indian press on this issue that doesn't reflect bias, (and would love to see one, if anyone can produce one!) but I agree, my generalization was out of line, and I apologize for any offense. Please note, however, I'm talking not about race or ethnicity-to me, it's more of a "nationalist" sort of issue. Discrimination, yes, I plead guilty...but not racism, in this case.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:35 pm

..oh, and by the way, I have heard that the Indian officials have asked where the idea of "Chinese Spy" came from in the original story--as they claim they never suggested such a thing to the media. The Media claims "un-named sources." The cops even say so, in the MSN story linked earlier.

Read the Yahoo reportage posted here in this thread (link below)......it's factual, and careful in even suggesting or discussing "motive" or connections...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110131/wl ... 0131055908

Compare this with some of the original reports from the Indian Press.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:05 pm

“Every Single Rupee is Accounted for” Says Karmapa Spokesman
Wednesday, 02 February 2011 22:21 James Dunn, The Tibet Post International

London: The Indian high court lawyer and spokesperson of Tibetan spiritual leader His Holiness 17th Karmapa Rinpoche, Naresh Mathur told Tibetans and Indian journalists that, "every single rupee is accounted for" in an attempt to quell the rumors following the seizure of money at His Holiness' residence at Gyudto monastery.
At the press conference at Gyudto Tantric University, Dharamshala on January 30th, Naresh Mathur answered direct questions from the collected media concerning the confiscation of foreign currencies worth Rs 6 crore from the offices of a Trust backed by the Karmapa and within his monastery. Naresh stated that the money was, "to establish an abode for the Karmapa, so that he could carrying on his functioning. Out here he is a guest, now you can see that us being here, this little conference, is disturbing the monks. These monks are very serious tantric practitioners, so it is in his mind to find his own little place where he can do his own thing. So, the monastery was negotiating for land, when the deal was made it was valued at 2.5 crore."

The Karmapa's spokesman continued by explaining that the money had originated from the Kagyu Monlam event held in December where the money was donated by many people from numerous countries. He added that there was tangible evidence for these donations "receipts were issued by the office of administration, which is the Labrang [Karmapa Institue]".

"The Labrang collected this money and when the money was demanded by the seller [of the land], then since this cash was not available at the Trust, but he said ‘I want it only in cash, I will not take a cheque', so then the Labrang made this payment of one crore, to the seller's representatives in Delhi, who've been arrested, by way of cash. Under section 10, I can do this. I did it. You see, now it is the lookout of the seller as to how he explains this to the tax authorities, but I was within my rights and I have up until now paid 75 lakhs out of 2.5 crores by cheque, and I can demonstrate that the funds are available to the Trust, and I have paid the office of the administration of the Karmapa which is the Labrang has paid one crore, in cash, and we have the receipt for that," he added.

Addressing the large amount of foreign currencies found in the police raid, Naresh admitted that there were flaws in how the monastery and the trust deals with donations, "we could just put a board there: ‘don't offer currency', but now we do not know what we receive, only when we segregate do we find out it's foreign currency. So, you know, these things they generally result in fines". He added that unlike the rupees donated, foreign currency couldn't be paid into the Labrang Trust bank account, resulting in the amounting of the foreign money found during the raid. However, he confessed that the Labrang Trust are likely to face reprimands from the Indian police for the failures in accounting, "think we may face prosecution, from the income tax and the enforcement directorate."

Last Updated ( Wednesday, 02 February 2011 23:52 )
http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/international/1427-every-single-rupee-is-accounted-for-says-karmapa-spokesman


It seems like it was poor understanding of how to do this business transaction, but not very sinister.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:53 pm

Today's Address by His Holiness Gyalwa Karmapa:


http://savetibet.org/media-center/tibet-news/please-be-ease-his-holiness-karmapa-addresses-gathering-dharamsala
(Dharamsala, February 3, 2011) His Holiness the Karmapa addressed a huge gathering of supporters this afternoon, acknowledging the difficult situation and stating that he trusts that the matter will be cleared in time. His Holiness further contrasted the rule of law in India to the system of communist China, calling India a second homeland for Tibetans. In a show of solidarity with His Holiness, the Deputy Speaker of the Parliament of the Tibetan government-in-exile, Dolma Gyari and seven other members of the Tibetan government shared the stage with His Holiness while he spoke.

The comments marked the first time that His Holiness the Karmapa has spoken publicly since the investigation began. His Holiness was speaking at the behest of several thousand Tibetan supporters who had staged a march from the residence of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in McLeod Ganj to His Holiness the Karmapa’s residence in the Kangra valley, a march of several hours. The organizers of the march, leaders of the Free Tibet movement, specified that it was not a protest, explaining that they were not opposing anyone, but merely showing their unequivocal confidence and trust in His Holiness the Karmapa.

“We usually hold public audiences on Wednesdays and Saturdays,” said His Holiness the Karmapa. “Today, so many people have gathered to show their love, sincere intentions and support, and I want to especially thank you and express my heartfelt gratitude. We are now facing such a situation, which has arisen due to misunderstandings and mistakes, that it has even caused concern to His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

“India has become a second homeland to Tibetans. We all have taken refuge and settled here. India, in contrast to communist China, is a free country, a democratic country that is based on the rule of law. Therefore I trust that things will improve and the truth will become clear in time. So please be at ease. There is no need to worry.

“You have all borne hardship to come here under this hot sun, and I thank you for that too. It seems there are too many people here today to receive you individually. You can see me from there and I can see you, so perhaps there is no need to give individual blessings.”

Along with the Deputy Speaker of the Parliament Dolma Gyari, sharing the stage in a show of their support for His Holiness the Karmapa were the following members of the Parliament of the Tibetan government-in-exile: Geshe Monlam Tharsi, Sonam Damdul, Sherab Tharchin, Tsering Youdon, Nawang Lhamo and Dawa Tsering.

His Holiness was confident and serene at all times while speaking. Since the investigation began, His Holiness has continued to receive visitors and participate in a major annual ritual cycle taking place, while also offering his full cooperation to the investigation.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:32 pm

conebeckham wrote:..oh, and by the way, I have heard that the Indian officials have asked where the idea of "Chinese Spy" came from in the original story--as they claim they never suggested such a thing to the media. The Media claims "un-named sources." The cops even say so, in the MSN story linked earlier.

Read the Yahoo reportage posted here in this thread (link below)......it's factual, and careful in even suggesting or discussing "motive" or connections...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110131/wl ... 0131055908

Compare this with some of the original reports from the Indian Press.


Hi Cone

You're right of course that the Indian goverment have not formally accused Orgyen Thniley of working for the Chinese. But their having that suspicion would explain the recent travel restrictions that have been placed on him.

The accusation now seems to be shifting towards the illegaility of the land transactions carried out by the monastery rather than the possession of the foreign cash:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 425563.cms

Chinese connection or not, illegal land transactions or not, all these allegations are bringing our glorious dharma traditions into shame and disrepute. For that alone, Orgyen Thinley is worthy of criticism. As head of the order (in the eyes of most Kagyupas and Tibetan Buddhists), he bears ultimate responsibility for maintaining the reputation of the tradition.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:21 pm

Hi Cone

You're right of course that the Indian goverment have not formally accused Orgyen Thniley of working for the Chinese. But their having that suspicion would explain the recent travel restrictions that have been placed on him.


What proof do you have that they "have a suspicion?" No Indian official has said anything of that nature, as far as I know. So far, it's only the media, and certain Tibetan factions who stand against His Holiness. This is not an "India/Karmapa" thing, really...nor is it an "India/China" thing, as some would like to paint it...there are more players in this game, I am sure. In all situations dealing wih HHGK, this is the case.... Other than that, I have no information to share.


The accusation now seems to be shifting towards the illegaility of the land transactions carried out by the monastery rather than the possession of the foreign cash:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 425563.cms

Not surprising. Pretty clear there is someone or something driving this issue--but this will open a can of worms for all Tibetan lineages with monasteries in India. A while back, there was some legal activity with regard to another monastery, in the Darjeeling area, but that was resolved. I'd venture a guess that the "Cast of Characters" may have been similar.


[Chinese connection or not, illegal land transactions or not, all these allegations are bringing our glorious dharma traditions into shame and disrepute. For that alone, Orgyen Thinley is worthy of criticism. As head of the order (in the eyes of most Kagyupas and Tibetan Buddhists), he bears ultimate responsibility for maintaining the reputation of the tradition.


I don't think they're "bringing our glorious dharma traditions into shame and disrepute." Of course, for those quick to judge, or looking for a reason, this may be the case....but thus far I am quite impressed with how HH has handled this storm, and I anticipate that, in the end, this situation will resolve itself in a positive manner for the Kagyu lineage in general and HH in particular. That's my own "speculation," I guess, but it's pretty general-and casts no aspersions.

The best thing we can do at this point, as Karma Kagyupas, is to continue our practice, and to stay calm and not engage in a lot of speculation, fanning the flames of discomfort and creating snakes when there are only ropes. This is HH's advice, and I take it to heart. You may do as you wish.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:57 pm

..oh, and Sherabpa, I notice you just recently joined us, and have made only 3 posts, all to this thread. What's up with that?

:shrug:
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby justsit » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:07 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Hi Cone
...What proof do you have that they "have a suspicion?" No Indian official has said anything of that nature, as far as I know. So far, it's only the media, and certain Tibetan factions who stand against His Holiness... This is not an "India/Karmapa" thing, really...nor is it an "India/China" thing, as some would like to paint it...there are more players in this game....

The best thing we can do at this point, as Karma Kagyupas, is to continue our practice, and to stay calm and not engage in a lot of speculation, fanning the flames of discomfort and creating snakes when there are only ropes. This is HH's advice, and I take it to heart. You may do as you wish.


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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby sherabpa » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:31 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Hi Cone
The best thing we can do at this point, as Karma Kagyupas, is to continue our practice, and to stay calm and not engage in a lot of speculation, fanning the flames of discomfort and creating snakes when there are only ropes. This is HH's advice, and I take it to heart. You may do as you wish.


You're right Cone, best to wait and see what happens.

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:24 pm

Here's an interesting story, or, rather, opinion piece, from the Telegraph out of Kolkata:
MANY MASQUERADES
- A fit of China-neurosis seems to have gripped the government
Sunanda K. Datta-Ray
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110205/j ... 535752.jsp

Soon after starting work in Singapore I asked a leading tax consultant there how to handle my modest Indian earnings from columns such as this. Since I was physically in Singapore, he said, the income would be deemed to have generated there and should be remitted and declared in my Singapore tax returns. However, the amount was so small after deducting India’s 40 per cent withholding tax, paying bank charges and conversion to Singapore dollars that the Singapore authorities wouldn’t bother if I didn’t. But he warned they would know all about it. “The information will be used if they want to get you for some other reason!”

As the action against His Holiness the 17th Gyalwa Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje, shows, all governments operate in the same way. India’s mix of rigorous rules and lax enforcement creates a huge armoury of coercive reserve weapons. Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s famous comment about every parliamentarian starting his legislative career with the lie of a false election return was matched by Gayatri Devi of Jaipur’s arrest not for opposing the Emergency but for infringing the Conservation of Foreign Exchange and Prevention of Smuggling Activities Act. Be you ever so law-abiding, it’s impossible not to break the law. You do so whenever you buy or sell a flat, consult a lawyer or even see a doctor, since rare is the professional who accepts payment by cheque against a receipt. The system offers authority a million opportunities to nab anyone it wants to.

But why does it want to nab a 26-year-old monk who fled Tibet 10 years ago to avoid having to attack the Dalai Lama and cozy up to Beijing’s anointed Panchen Lama? India’s security brooks no compromise and the law must take its course if he is, indeed, China’s “strategic asset” in “constant touch with the Chinese authorities”. That is the crux of the matter, and our anonymous officials are belittling the national interest by making it incidental to supposedly murky financial transactions. No doubt they will say they are only upholding the law on foreign exchange, black money and benami property transactions, but their unattributed media briefings clearly suggest that the raids, arrests, questionings and seizures are intended to demonize the Karmapa. Comments like “He is not a Karmapa” and “We will not allow him to be the Karmapa” give the game away for they have no bearing on the financial improprieties that are supposedly being investigated.

Nar Bahadur Bhandari, Sikkim’s former chief minister and present head of the Pradesh Congress Committee, is neither Tibetan nor Buddhist, has enough experience of smear tactics, strong-arm methods and judicial persecution to “sniff a conspiracy”. No one mentions the Karmapa’s Saraswati Charitable Trust into which all unsolicited cash donations would have been paid if permission to do so had not been withdrawn after the first $100,000. He then registered the Karma Garchen Trust but the application to receive foreign donations under the Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act has been pending since 2002. Forced to retain donations as they come, the monastery ensures that every penny, cent or yuan (under 10 per cent of the total despite the hullabaloo over Chinese currency) is “diligently recorded”. Even one-yuan notes from humble Tibetans without access to any other currency are recorded. As for allegations of improper land use, every single government department cleared the purchase of a plot for a monastery and residence. The sellers’ legally permissible demand for cash payment had to be met.

Bhandari’s conspiracy theory explains official ambivalence about the Karmapa’s status. Delhi’s non-recognition of something that is for only Karma Kagyu Buddhists to decide makes no difference in religious terms and can even be commended as an admission of the limits of secular jurisdiction. But petty pinpricks like taking away minor privileges he previously enjoyed indicate malice. Leave alone the motorcades that even junior state ministers flaunt, the Karmapa has to check in at airports and go through security like anyone else. He accepts it with dignity though Delhi throws a tantrum when even a Bollywood star is subjected to the same routine at American airports. While the ban on entering Rumtek monastery, which his predecessor established as the seat of the lineage, is attributed to the court case filed by a rival, there is no justification for rejecting the pleas of Sikkim’s government and people to let him visit the state where three other Karma Kagyu monasteries are clamouring to welcome him.

Rumtek and the oral teachings of gurus who received them there from the 16th Karmapa were additional reasons for coming to India. The Karmapa also sought the Dalai Lama’s blessings and wanted to spread the Karma Kagyu message abroad like his predecessor. He could not do that from Tibet. “India, in contrast to communist China, is a free country, a democratic country that is based on the rule of law,” he told his followers on Wednesday, advising patience because “the truth will become clear in time … There is no need to worry.”

One explanation for the persecution is that a genuine fit of China-neurosis grips a government seeking to atone for ignoring floods of Saudi funds invested in mosques and madrasas. The government’s Research and Analysis Wing peremptorily calls leading research institutions to demand details of whatever their academic guests from China said or did. It’s like the policeman who turned up in my editorial office to ask that I should report everything the diplomat who was scheduled to call the next day said. When I threw him out, a civil servant friend warned that since the policeman had to submit a report, he would invent one about my talks with the diplomat! Like the supposedly seized Chinese SIM cards and the enforcement directorate’s claim of records of conversations between His Holiness and Chinese officials which the Karmapa’s office dismisses as “fiction masquerading as journalism”.

Secondly, official agencies may be trying to whip up controversies to distract attention from the government’s own stink of corruption. A mix of godliness, wealth and espionage involving a 900-year-old youthful monk whose adventurous journey across the Himalayas captured the world’s imagination is more exciting than 2G spectrum. A third reason could be the letter an American devotee sent Sonia Gandhi, without consulting the Karmapa, condemning the “violation of his human rights” and the “blatant abuse of his freedom for religious expression”. The recipient cannot have been amused, but one hesitates to think of the persecution as retaliation, especially since the Karmapa’s office issued a conciliatory clarification.

The most bizarre explanation is that Indian intelligence always knew that China had created an eight-year-old Karmapa to be smuggled into India seven years later so that he could amass a fortune here and set up a string of Himalayan “China study centres” after another decade. Though the intelligence folk always knew he was “a security threat”, they played along expecting reciprocal concessions. Instead, China’s hardened stand on bilateral disputes provoked the intelligence outburst, “We have kept quiet for too long!” This theory prompted a veteran academic’s comment that more centres are welcome because we should study our northern neighbour far more seriously.

The trump card is Delhi’s reported wish to crown a rival claimant whose sponsor is believed to have civil servants and intelligence personnel eating out of his hand. “They can’t shove a pretender down our throats!” exclaims an outraged Buddhist who marched for hours in Wednesday’s show of solidarity with His Holiness. Such motivated arbitrariness would betray the pride with which P.V. Narasimha Rao once told me that no other country had shown similar hospitality to Tibet’s people and prelates. It would also reduce India to the level of medieval European regimes that created popes to do their bidding and of China whose attempt to foist a make-believe Panchen Lama on Tibet made a farce of Buddhism’s second highest incarnation. It’s high time the prime minister intervened for the sake of India’s reputation and to ensure that national security is not trivialized.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:35 pm

Nandana Sutta: Delight translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Mara the Evil One went to the Blessed One and recited this verse in his presence:

Those with children
delight
because of their children.
Those with cattle
delight
because of their cows.
A person's delight
comes from acquisitions,
since a person with no acquisitions
doesn't delight.

[The Buddha:]
Those with children
grieve
because of their children.
Those with cattle
grieve
because of their cows.
A person's grief
comes from acquisitions,
since a person with no acquisitions
doesn't grieve.
Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "The Blessed One knows me; the One Well-Gone knows me" — vanished right there.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:38 pm

Appaka Sutta: Few translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

As he was sitting to one side, King Pasenadi Kosala said to the Blessed One: "Just now, lord, while I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness: 'Few are those people in the world who, when acquiring lavish wealth, don't become intoxicated & heedless, don't become greedy for sensual pleasures, and don't mistreat other beings. Many more are those who, when acquiring lavish wealth, become intoxicated & heedless, become greedy for sensual pleasures, and mistreat other beings.'"

"That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Few are those people in the world who, when acquiring lavish wealth, don't become intoxicated & heedless, don't become greedy for sensual pleasures, and don't mistreat other beings. Many more are those who, when acquiring lavish wealth, become intoxicated & heedless, become greedy for sensual pleasures, and mistreat other beings."

That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, said further:

Impassioned with sensual possessions,
greedy, dazed by sensual pleasures,
they don't awaken to the fact
that they've gone too far —
like deer into a trap laid out.
Afterwards it's bitter for them:
evil for them
the result.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:58 pm

Greg-
Are you somehow implying, by quoting from sutras, that any "suffering" or grief that's occurred due to this incident are due to greed or materialistic impulses on the part of HHGK? What's your point, man?
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:38 pm

Dear Cone,

My point is that if one (anyone) sleeps with pigs in the morning they end up smelling like bacon.

For me it is not the fact that it was the Karmapas office that was raided and large sums of cash were found on the premises (don't they have banks in India?) that is of importance but that monastic institutions (Sangha) have become so embroiled in finances and financing that they do not seem to differ one iota from any dharmic (small "d") corporation.

Of course Dharma institutions require money, materials, properties, etc... but, really, shouldn't this stuff be left in the hands of the laity? Shouldn't monastics be, well, monastics and not accountants, bankers, managers, etc...?

The Theravadran Buddhist Monastic Code (for example) states that:
18. Should any bhikkhu accept gold and silver, or have it accepted, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.

As mentioned under NP 10, one of the purposes of this rule is to relieve a bhikkhu of the burden of ownership that comes as the result of accepting gifts of money or having them accepted in one's name. The discourses contain passages, though, indicating other purposes for this rule as well:

"For anyone for whom gold and silver are allowable, the five strings of sensuality are also allowable. For anyone for whom the five strings of sensuality are allowable, gold and silver are allowable (reading yassa pañca kāmaguṇā kappanti tassa-pi jātarūpa-rajataṃ kappati with the Thai edition). That you can unequivocally recognize as not the quality of a contemplative, not the quality of one of the Sakyan sons." — SN XLII.10

"Bhikkhus, there are these four obscurations of the sun and moon, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle. Which four? Clouds... Fog... Smoke and dust... Rāhu, the king of the asuras (believed to be the cause of an eclipse) is an obscuration, obscured by which the sun and moon don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle... In the same way, there are four obscurations of contemplatives and brahmans, obscured by which some contemplatives and brahmans don't glow, don't shine, don't dazzle. Which four? There are some contemplatives and brahmans who... do not refrain from drinking alcohol and fermented liquor... who do not refrain from sexual intercourse ... who do not refrain from accepting gold and silver ... who do not refrain from wrong livelihood... Because of these obscurations, some brahmans and contemplatives ... covered with darkness, slaves to craving, led on, swell the terrible charnel ground, grab at further becoming." — AN IV.50

For the full article see here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#NP18 In the article you will find links to the passages quoted by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

This, to me, seems to be in keeping with the Buddhas teachings on monastic renunciation and will ensure that the Sangha remains free of the various economic scandals (like the Maitreya Project for example) that have tainted their reputation.

In the thread "Tibetan Buddhism (Vajrayana) : Will it stick ?" you stated that crass commercialisation will be one of the factors that decides if Vajrayana will take root in the west, I think that maybe you can expand that to include economic scandals?
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Dhondrub » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:51 pm

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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby conebeckham » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:58 pm

Okay, Greg.
I'm sympathetic to what you say.
But the flip side of this is that without the economic "power" that donations and sponsorship represents, most of us would never have had the good fortune to meet our teachers. We rely on the institutions created by lineages, teachers, etc., in order for the Dharma to be transmitted.

I don't see any indication of greed or "love of wealth" in this particular situation---the Kagyu Monlam, for example, is a beneficial activity that costs money to bring about. And it's traditional to donate, to give, as a means of accumulation of merit. Heck, the mandala is all about giving (on many levels).

The fact that the administration of HHGK has money is surely not a shock to anyone. Perhaps there are other ways to administer this money, but I would not infer that this event occurred due to some sort of materialistic "desire." That seems to be what you're impying, but perhaps I mis-read your intent.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Dhondrub » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:03 pm

Greg- there is nothing dirty about money per se. And also it isnt that much of a surprise to anyone that the tibetan monastic system differs quite a bit from Theravadins.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:18 pm

There are rumours around about foreign political powers financing other Tibetan lamas.

I was going to post about the relationship between internal Tibetan politics of the TGIE, foreign sponsorship, the Chinese, and the Indian Government as a legal and moral authority over the TGIE, but I just can't be bothered as I suspect nothing will emerge from this which I will be able understand.

If anything does emerge, then maybe there will be lessons to learn, prayers to be said etc.

I'm sorry for those who feel personally affected, but at the moment for me it would be idle gossip akin to discussing the size of a mountain hidden in the mist.
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Re: Cops raid at the Karmapas office

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:39 pm

Dhondrub wrote:Greg- there is nothing dirty about money per se.
I would say that there is something "dirty" about money per se because the utilisation of a monetary system assumes a wide range of economic, social and political relations which I believe are fundamentally flawed, but then I am a old anarcho-communistic-eco-autonomistic-ad nauseum-ist. So... :tongue:
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