Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby kirtu » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:56 pm

Pero wrote:Anyway, I also spoke to Namdrol about those who achieved rainbow bodies having rebirth and he too said that in the tantras it says they can have a non-afflictive rebirth. This however begged the question if such a one is reborn what's he like? I didn't get an answer on that but my thinking is if a full blown Buddha chooses to take rebirth then he should be a full blown Buddha when he is born. Studying, practice and stuff shouldn't be necessary. Heck if in a previous life he achieved rainbow body if you set him on fire in this one he shouldn't burn. So with that, I still don't believe there is any who achieve rainbow body that take rebirth.


A non-afflicitive rebirth means that their minds are purified not that their can't be harmed physically. It doesn't actually make sense that beings who take rainbow body can't generate emanations or take incarnations.

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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:41 pm

kirtu wrote:A non-afflicitive rebirth means that their minds are purified not that their can't be harmed physically.


But someone who achieved the rainbow body cannot be harmed. How come then if such a one choses to be born again that he can be harmed?

It doesn't actually make sense that beings who take rainbow body can't generate emanations.

Never said that.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby kirtu » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:56 am

Pero wrote:
kirtu wrote:A non-afflicitive rebirth means that their minds are purified not that their can't be harmed physically.


But someone who achieved the rainbow body cannot be harmed. How come then if such a one choses to be born again that he can be harmed?


Because they have intentionally taken a flesh and blood body from some purpose. This incarnation/emanation isn't a rainbow body. One can argue about whether they would actually have the karma to experience harm though - but they could live a normal life, even a hidden life and eventually die of a disease (or the manifestation of a disease). It's not like they are displaying a rainbow body like Padmasambhava's for example (there are different kinds of rainbow bodies even).

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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Josef » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:11 am

The karmic vision of disciples/ordinary beings is also a consideration.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby narraboth » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:18 pm

Pero wrote:
Heart wrote:I think that when they say emanation of Vimalamitra they feel that Vimalamitras qualities are visible in a person, it is not the same as a Tulku.


Interesting point.

Narraboth wrote:Khyentse Wangpo can not be the co-incarnation of many masters either.


I think "co-incarnations" are complete nonsense.

Narraboth wrote:however I don't believe Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo is less enlightened than masters who dissolve their bodies into light just because Khyentse Rinpoche didn't show that. If Khyentse can have trulkus, why Jalupa can't?


I thought JKW did achieve rainbow body? But anyway you have a point. Though you have to assume that those masters were indeed fully enlightened. Which is something we can't know for sure, since like you said an ant can't compare the height of two mountains haha.

Ju Mipham Rinpoche claimed by himself that he won't have a reincarnation before his passing. But his trulkus are still recognised by great masters such as Penor Rinpoche.


Heh...

Anyway, I also spoke to Namdrol about those who achieved rainbow bodies having rebirth and he too said that in the tantras it says they can have a non-afflictive rebirth. This however begged the question if such a one is reborn what's he like? I didn't get an answer on that but my thinking is if a full blown Buddha chooses to take rebirth then he should be a full blown Buddha when he is born. Studying, practice and stuff shouldn't be necessary. Heck if in a previous life he achieved rainbow body if you set him on fire in this one he shouldn't burn. So with that, I still don't believe there is any who achieve rainbow body that take rebirth.


first, I don't think that tulku claimed that he is a Pemadudul's tulku in Tibetan. He is the tulku of a great lama, the son of Lerablingpa, a emenation of Pemadudul according to a terma (I didn't read the text though). So, in a sense, he is one of 'trulkus' of Pemadudul. But he is not formally recoginzed and given name as Pemadudul's tulku. It's like Penor Rinpoche is recognized as previous Penor Rinpoche's reincarnation, but we consider Rinpoche as an emenation of Vimalamitra as many other great masters said.

But the idea of 'Jalupa can't have a tulku' is something I don't really buy. I hope we are not playing words here, because terms like 'emenation' 'incarnation' 'rebirth' all have their limits. I don't think Jalupa will usually have 'rebirth' either, but the term rebirth can not cover the term Trulku.

We don't even have the same idea when talking about 'Jalupa' here. Vimalamitra is a 'Jalu Pochen', Pemadudul is a siddha who dissolved his whole body, many other masters left only small size of bodies are also called Jalupa, and now you say you think Khyentse Wangpo is also a Jalupa.

As you said we don't know if Khyentse Wangpo's enlightenment is equal as Pemadudul's, but then how can you know Pemedudul couldn't have a flesh tulku? We just couldn't know anyway. But I can say there is no base that Jalupa has higher enlightenment than non-Jalupa, otherwise all Jalupa would be higher than Buddha Shakyamuni. Actually there can't be a tantric base saying that Jalupa can't have a tulku (in sense of tulku system's tulku), because the system was created after tantras were formed.

I can't see why masters can't be co-incarnations. If Khyentse can have 5 or 25 tulkus, then one tulku can be from 5 or 25 masters. It's so common in Tibetan Buddhism really. A near case is Shechen Ramjam Rinpoche, who is the combination of Shechen Gyaltsab, Ramjam and Kontrul, according to dilgo khyentse Rinpoche's pure vision. You feel it's non-sense just because you are sticked to one-soul-one-being idea; buddhas are not limited by this.

The question about 'if a tulku still needs to study' has been answered by Jigme Lingpa. Anyway, even Shakyamuni Buddha himself who has been enlightened ages ago, as said in sutras, still appeared to be a common prince and went through all study processes.

Finally, to Heart: what's the difference between a 'Vimalamitra's qualities in visible form' and a 'Vimalamitra's tulku', besides the later one got a recognization letter?
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:11 pm

kirtu wrote:Because they have intentionally taken a flesh and blood body from some purpose. This incarnation/emanation isn't a rainbow body. One can argue about whether they would actually have the karma to experience harm though - but they could live a normal life, even a hidden life and eventually die of a disease (or the manifestation of a disease).


A Buddha incarnate would have no karma, so how could he experience disease? From what cause could a disease arise? Or could he just appear to have a disease for some reason, like Shakyamuni perhaps?

It's not like they are displaying a rainbow body like Padmasambhava's for example (there are different kinds of rainbow bodies even).


I thought the only difference between Padmasambhava's and Vimalamitra's rainbow body with that of others was that these two didn't have to die to achieve it.

Nangwa wrote:The karmic vision of disciples/ordinary beings is also a consideration.


Can you elaborate?

Narraboth wrote:As you said we don't know if Khyentse Wangpo's enlightenment is equal as Pemadudul's, but then how can you know Pemedudul couldn't have a flesh tulku? We just couldn't know anyway.


Oh no no, if both achieved rainbow body then their realization is the same.

But I can say there is no base that Jalupa has higher enlightenment than non-Jalupa, otherwise all Jalupa would be higher than Buddha Shakyamuni.


Yes, but if someone achieves rainbow body then I think you can be sure that he achieved total realization.

You feel it's non-sense just because you are sticked to one-soul-one-being idea; buddhas are not limited by this.


Yes I have that idea, I find a little odd it would be otherwise. I don't believe in our next life we can be reborn as Peroboth. :lol:

The question about 'if a tulku still needs to study' has been answered by Jigme Lingpa.


No, that was for blessed tulku if I got your post right. I'm talking about a full blown Buddha incarnate. Shakyamuni is a little different because he was the first and so he appeared to do all that in order to turn the wheel of dharma. But I suppose you could argue that others also do the same for the benefit of sentient beings.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Josef » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:47 pm

Hi Pero,
I think it is interesting to consider how these "emanations" and "tulkus" appear to those of use with restricted vision etc.
How do we perceive the forms of emanations of those who have attained the rainbow body?
How does a being with tainted karmic vision perceive the form of a "being" that has reached the highest level of "attainment"?
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:51 pm

Nangwa wrote:Hi Pero,
I think it is interesting to consider how these "emanations" and "tulkus" appear to those of use with restricted vision etc.
How do we perceive the forms of emanations of those who have attained the rainbow body?
How does a being with tainted karmic vision perceive the form of a "being" that has reached the highest level of "attainment"?


As far as I understand we can't perceive those who achieved rainbow body at all unless we have some realization. However a human emanation would have a human body (as has been pointed out to me a few times now hehe) we could perceive. I suppose your point is that due to our obscurations we perceive such human emanations as mere ordinary humans?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Josef » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:56 am

Pero wrote:
Nangwa wrote:Hi Pero,
I think it is interesting to consider how these "emanations" and "tulkus" appear to those of use with restricted vision etc.
How do we perceive the forms of emanations of those who have attained the rainbow body?
How does a being with tainted karmic vision perceive the form of a "being" that has reached the highest level of "attainment"?


As far as I understand we can't perceive those who achieved rainbow body at all unless we have some realization. However a human emanation would have a human body (as has been pointed out to me a few times now hehe) we could perceive. I suppose your point is that due to our obscurations we perceive such human emanations as mere ordinary humans?

I don't think I really have a point. :smile:
I just think its an interesting thought to investigate.
But if I did have a point that would probably be it.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby narraboth » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:48 pm

haha, Pero, I think your questions are not just for Pemadudul anymore, they are for the whole tulku system.

Base on tantra, nyingma or sarma, great beings attain fully enlightenment in this life, dying time, or Bardo. The enlightenment is equal to buddhahood otherwise we shouldn't say vajrayana can let you become buddha within one lifetime. If your logic stand, then it will be like: all those masters who still have tulkus nowadays, didn't attain fully enlightenment. (Otherwise they won't have incarnations who need to study and may get sick)

Jigme Lingpa said tulku needs to study. For blessed tulku, that's for sure. But even for Karmapa or dalai lama, have you ever heard that they could read Tibetan without learning tibetan? Almost everyone needs to study alphabets before they can read! (Some people say it's called 'womb stain', means even enlightened bodhisattva, if they decided to take human body, the womb stain would let them forget lots of thing. All the previous knowledge will only come back after the stain is purified. It is said that Jonang Taranata is the only Tibetan master who's free from womb stain, but I don't know much about it.)

Anyway, that's all about tulku system. You don't need to totally swallow it. I mean, even masters like Dzongsar Khyentse rinpoche dislike the system! However, I do believe there are tulkus who are the very 'continual' of their previous seat holders.

I might not be able to become both you and me :) but if you attain enlightenment soon, you might bless my next life, and I may become a Pero tulku :D

Pero wrote:
kirtu wrote:Because they have intentionally taken a flesh and blood body from some purpose. This incarnation/emanation isn't a rainbow body. One can argue about whether they would actually have the karma to experience harm though - but they could live a normal life, even a hidden life and eventually die of a disease (or the manifestation of a disease).


A Buddha incarnate would have no karma, so how could he experience disease? From what cause could a disease arise? Or could he just appear to have a disease for some reason, like Shakyamuni perhaps?

It's not like they are displaying a rainbow body like Padmasambhava's for example (there are different kinds of rainbow bodies even).


I thought the only difference between Padmasambhava's and Vimalamitra's rainbow body with that of others was that these two didn't have to die to achieve it.

Nangwa wrote:The karmic vision of disciples/ordinary beings is also a consideration.


Can you elaborate?

Narraboth wrote:As you said we don't know if Khyentse Wangpo's enlightenment is equal as Pemadudul's, but then how can you know Pemedudul couldn't have a flesh tulku? We just couldn't know anyway.


Oh no no, if both achieved rainbow body then their realization is the same.

But I can say there is no base that Jalupa has higher enlightenment than non-Jalupa, otherwise all Jalupa would be higher than Buddha Shakyamuni.


Yes, but if someone achieves rainbow body then I think you can be sure that he achieved total realization.

You feel it's non-sense just because you are sticked to one-soul-one-being idea; buddhas are not limited by this.


Yes I have that idea, I find a little odd it would be otherwise. I don't believe in our next life we can be reborn as Peroboth. :lol:

The question about 'if a tulku still needs to study' has been answered by Jigme Lingpa.


No, that was for blessed tulku if I got your post right. I'm talking about a full blown Buddha incarnate. Shakyamuni is a little different because he was the first and so he appeared to do all that in order to turn the wheel of dharma. But I suppose you could argue that others also do the same for the benefit of sentient beings.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:14 pm

narraboth wrote:haha, Pero, I think your questions are not just for Pemadudul anymore, they are for the whole tulku system.


Well yeah, this topic was just kind of a catalyst I suppose hehe.

If your logic stand, then it will be like: all those masters who still have tulkus nowadays, didn't attain fully enlightenment. (Otherwise they won't have incarnations who need to study and may get sick)


Tulkus in the sense of reincarnations.

But even for Karmapa or dalai lama, have you ever heard that they could read Tibetan without learning tibetan? Almost everyone needs to study alphabets before they can read!


Two pretty poor examples. Karmapa split in two and if I'm not mistaken the current Dalai Lama said his sister had more signs of being an important reincarnation than himself. Not to mention one of the Dalai Lamas flat out said his recognition was faked. I've no doubt that the Dalai Lama is a great master, but whether or not he is really a reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama or something is another matter.

(Some people say it's called 'womb stain', means even enlightened bodhisattva, if they decided to take human body, the womb stain would let them forget lots of thing. All the previous knowledge will only come back after the stain is purified. It is said that Jonang Taranata is the only Tibetan master who's free from womb stain, but I don't know much about it.)


Hmm that's interesting, but something obscuring a Buddha's knowledge? I'm not sure I believe that.

Anyway, that's all about tulku system. You don't need to totally swallow it.


Hehe, I know. :smile:

I might not be able to become both you and me :) but if you attain enlightenment soon, you might bless my next life, and I may become a Pero tulku :D


:rolling:
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby kirtu » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:38 am

Pero wrote:
narraboth wrote: (Some people say it's called 'womb stain', means even enlightened bodhisattva, if they decided to take human body, the womb stain would let them forget lots of thing. )


Hmm that's interesting, but something obscuring a Buddha's knowledge? I'm not sure I believe that.


Actually that's something that the 2nd Dalai Lama said - he was enthroned as a boy as the reincarnation of Gedun Drup and he said in response to a question about personality changes that this was due to the rebirth process.

We view the lamas and esp. the lineage heads as emanations or incarnations of various real Buddhas but it isn't necessarily so. Many might only be very high Bodhisattvas. Or they could be Buddhas taking birth as very high Bodhisattvas (just like they could take birth as a bridge or a rock or an animal or anything at all in fact in order to help beings).

In the Sakya tradition (a tradition that is not very tulku happy I might add) high lamas actions are seen as appearances - so Sakya Pandita's guru, Drakpa Gyaltsen, manifested the appearance of sickness for example. So Buddhas can be born in the world with the appearance of being an ordinary person, etc.

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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Adamantine » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:53 am

Pero wrote:A Buddha incarnate would have no karma, so how could he experience disease? From what cause could a disease arise? Or could he just appear to have a disease for some reason, like Shakyamuni perhaps?


No, that was for blessed tulku if I got your post right. I'm talking about a full blown Buddha incarnate. Shakyamuni is a little different because he was the first and so he appeared to do all that in order to turn the wheel of dharma. But I suppose you could argue that others also do the same for the benefit of sentient beings.


Both these questions are simply answered by the same quote I posted in R.Ray thread from WoMPT:

"So that such a true teacher may skilfully guide the ordinary people needing his help, he makes his everyday conduct conform to that of ordinary people. But
in reality his wisdom mind is that of a Buddha, so he is utterly different from everyone else. Each of his acts is simply the activity of a realized being attuned to the nature of those he has to benefit."

In general, it is said this is how most Nirmanakaya's act, in hidden form, --appearing as ordinary people out of compassion simply because if they appeared in a fantastic way to us, it would be beyond our own capacity to understand them, we wouldn't be able to easily relate to them, and thus absorbing the teachings would be more difficult. Of course, karmic vision is part of it. But why most Nirmanakaya's keep their siddhis hidden from public view is precisely this reason. Then displaying impermanence is another act of kindness. But some stay healthy for quite some time, like Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche who is almost 100. . I think this is his kind way of showing us the power and truth of interdependence through the effects of the vast "ransoming the lives of animals" practice he does annually, as well as his strict adherence to a vegetarian diet. By extending the lives of those whose lives are immediately endangered, a side effect is said to be one's own longevity and health.

If it's hard for you to wrap you heads around a rainbow-body holder emanating a Nirmanakaya form in an easy to recognize way to relate to close students from before, -then wrap your mind around Dudjom Lingpa sending all his disciples to Pema Ko to find his "reincarnation", while he was still alive. And once they got there, although Dudjom Lingpa may have passed away by then, his reincarnation recognized each of them upon sight, without them having to look-- and quizzed some of them on their practice showing his recall was fundamentally clear. And because of his age, it was evident that this child had already been born before Dudjom Lingpa had passed on. This was the young Dudjom Rinpoche. This is clearly a true "Tulku", not simply a re-incarnation.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby narraboth » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:48 pm

Pero wrote:
narraboth wrote:
But even for Karmapa or dalai lama, have you ever heard that they could read Tibetan without learning tibetan? Almost everyone needs to study alphabets before they can read!


Two pretty poor examples. Karmapa split in two and if I'm not mistaken the current Dalai Lama said his sister had more signs of being an important reincarnation than himself. Not to mention one of the Dalai Lamas flat out said his recognition was faked. I've no doubt that the Dalai Lama is a great master, but whether or not he is really a reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama or something is another matter.

(Some people say it's called 'womb stain', means even enlightened bodhisattva, if they decided to take human body, the womb stain would let them forget lots of thing. All the previous knowledge will only come back after the stain is purified. It is said that Jonang Taranata is the only Tibetan master who's free from womb stain, but I don't know much about it.)


Hmm that's interesting, but something obscuring a Buddha's knowledge? I'm not sure I believe that.



Hi, firstly, you said 'tulku in sense of reincarnation.' But that's your definition. It's all called 'tulku' in Tibetan. You can't rule tibetan people to use the term 'tulku' just as reincarnation. Sometimes they do use it as similar to the idea of reincarnation, but they still name it as tulku! You can't tell them 'hey, I am gonna to limit this term for only reincarnation now' since they just don't use the term reincarnation, and it's their language, their tulku system. Again, we can't just westernize a Tibetan term and then accuse Tibetan people when they don't use the term as how we westernized.

About if Karmapa splited to two.... that's a controversial question i guess. but let's stop here. What I meant is, even when Karmapa was not splited to two (from the 2nd to 15th etc ), they still appeared to learn Tibetan before they read didn't they? It doesn't matter if the two examples are poor or not; just answer me, do 'reincarnations' need to study alphabets before they can read?

I don't really think womb stain will stain completed enlightened Buddha either. I think I have heard that it can influence bhumi Boddhisattva, but I am not sure up to which bhumi. However, it's still possible that Buddha's emenation 'appears' as stained by womb.

In Vajrayana, the idea of 'attending enlightenment' is also a little bit difference from the idea in Mahayana. Although I am sure it's the same Buddha three kayas to be realized, there might be some differences on 'showing the qualities of Buddhas' in the very beginning due to two different ways to acheive Buddhahood. I think there are some commentaries talking about this.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby ngodrup » Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:53 pm

Seems to be the difference between Liberation and Buddhahood--
Liberation (Nibbana) seems to imply no returning; Buddhahood
seems to imply being beyond limits and of infinite benefit.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Malcolm » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:03 pm

How many tulkus can fit on the head of a pin?
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:How many tulkus can fit on the head of a pin?


LOL....
All of them or none of them, depending how you look at it. :smile:
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Yudron » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:20 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Pero wrote:A Buddha incarnate would have no karma, so how could he experience disease? From what cause could a disease arise? Or could he just appear to have a disease for some reason, like Shakyamuni perhaps?


No, that was for blessed tulku if I got your post right. I'm talking about a full blown Buddha incarnate. Shakyamuni is a little different because he was the first and so he appeared to do all that in order to turn the wheel of dharma. But I suppose you could argue that others also do the same for the benefit of sentient beings.


Both these questions are simply answered by the same quote I posted in R.Ray thread from WoMPT:

"So that such a true teacher may skilfully guide the ordinary people needing his help, he makes his everyday conduct conform to that of ordinary people. But
in reality his wisdom mind is that of a Buddha, so he is utterly different from everyone else. Each of his acts is simply the activity of a realized being attuned to the nature of those he has to benefit."

In general, it is said this is how most Nirmanakaya's act, in hidden form, --appearing as ordinary people out of compassion simply because if they appeared in a fantastic way to us, it would be beyond our own capacity to understand them, we wouldn't be able to easily relate to them, and thus absorbing the teachings would be more difficult. Of course, karmic vision is part of it. But why most Nirmanakaya's keep their siddhis hidden from public view is precisely this reason. Then displaying impermanence is another act of kindness. But some stay healthy for quite some time, like Kyabje Chatral Rinpoche who is almost 100. . I think this is his kind way of showing us the power and truth of interdependence through the effects of the vast "ransoming the lives of animals" practice he does annually, as well as his strict adherence to a vegetarian diet. By extending the lives of those whose lives are immediately endangered, a side effect is said to be one's own longevity and health.

If it's hard for you to wrap you heads around a rainbow-body holder emanating a Nirmanakaya form in an easy to recognize way to relate to close students from before, -then wrap your mind around Dudjom Lingpa sending all his disciples to Pema Ko to find his "reincarnation", while he was still alive. And once they got there, although Dudjom Lingpa may have passed away by then, his reincarnation recognized each of them upon sight, without them having to look-- and quizzed some of them on their practice showing his recall was fundamentally clear. And because of his age, it was evident that this child had already been born before Dudjom Lingpa had passed on. This was the young Dudjom Rinpoche. This is clearly a true "Tulku", not simply a re-incarnation.


No, he had not been born before Dudjom Lingpa passed on. He was in utero.
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby mmm » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:07 pm

Hi, i dont understand these things, but I can only share what I have heard from Dilgo Khyentse Ynagsi Rinpoche in Mindrolling in 2009. He said emanation of body is related with body activities such as buliding stupas, gompas etc, speech emantion is someone closely related to deceased master by having listened to many teachings, mind emanation is someone who recieved many teachings on mind and has practices and accomplished the aspect of mind etc. He said he himself was recognized by Trulshik Rinpoche very early but it was officialy anouncend only after there began to appear different other candidates. good luck to all
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Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Virgo » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:25 am

[quote="PeroYes, emanations, not reincarnations. [/quote]
What is an emenation? I mean I think I understand, but is the emenation just a deluded person to begin with with extra added potential and blessings from being emenated, or are they like completely enlightened from the get go?

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