Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
I am personally of the opinion that Dzogchen has been over-marketed here in the West. I do not doubt the validity of anything about it, just that it has pandered to many of our cultural preconditions and thus has gotten an undue amount of attention. The reason there are 9 yanas is because one size does not fit all. The best medicine is the one that cures the sickness you have got, not the most powerful or famous medicine.
Note: I did say this was only my opinion.
Note: I did say this was only my opinion.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
That's true. And even worse it is marketed as just another meditation technique. Just look at the latest cover of Shambhala Sun:smcj wrote:I am personally of the opinion that Dzogchen has been over-marketed here in the West.
A lot of people use Dzogchen to sell their teachings, without really teaching Dzogchen at all.I do not doubt the validity of anything about it, just that it has pandered to many of our cultural preconditions and thus has gotten an undue amount of attention.
In this case, the best Dharma for you is the one you want to practice. Dzoghen is a high teaching. That does not mean it is not a path. It is a path. And it can be practiced by any interested person.The reason there are 9 yanas is because one size does not fit all. The best medicine is the one that cures the sickness you have got, not the most powerful or famous medicine.
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
It is the case that for most people it is easier to attain Arhatship than to attain rainbow body at death (Great Transference that everyone nearby can see).Malcolm wrote:This is really not the case. Who ever taught you this?kirtu wrote: It is more easy to become an Arhat than attain rainbow body.
Most people do not practice. If they did serious renunciation or purification practice it would be rare. Most people do not meditate. Out of people who do meditate most people are not stable. Most people are overwhelmed by their negativities at least from time to time. Most people don't abide in the natural state. Of those who do, there is a chance. But most of them need long, closed retreat and most people can't or don't do that.
There are many factors involved in whether a practitioner attains the rainbow body.
And fewer factors are involved in the complete defeat of emotional obscurations.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Clearly there are a lot of people who think that practice dzogchen but they dont.
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
I really don't like Shambhala Sun, but I have to say one of the articles in this issue was written by one of my own masters, Tsoknyi Rinpoche. You can view it here;Malcolm wrote:That's true. And even worse it is marketed as just another meditation technique. Just look at the latest cover of Shambhala Sun:smcj wrote:I am personally of the opinion that Dzogchen has been over-marketed here in the West.
A lot of people use Dzogchen to sell their teachings, without really teaching Dzogchen at all.I do not doubt the validity of anything about it, just that it has pandered to many of our cultural preconditions and thus has gotten an undue amount of attention.
In this case, the best Dharma for you is the one you want to practice. Dzoghen is a high teaching. That does not mean it is not a path. It is a path. And it can be practiced by any interested person.The reason there are 9 yanas is because one size does not fit all. The best medicine is the one that cures the sickness you have got, not the most powerful or famous medicine.
http://www.tsoknyirinpoche.org/8631/dzo ... bhala-sun/
I think its quite a nice introduction. For me, and many others, he's the real deal Dzogchen-wise. He gets straight to the pith instructions in plain language, without making people jump through hoops for little real Dzogchen instruction in the end. Also he has a fine family lineage and pedigree.
How Shambhala markets it's contributors articles is another story. Not my cup of tea.
s.
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
This just really is not the case, kirt. But far be it from me to sway you from your superior knowledge.kirtu wrote:
It is the case that for most people it is easier to attain Arhatship
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
I never heard that even one of all the Westerner Dzogchen practitioners (no matter if they are in an official lineage, have an official teacher, got direct "empowernment" or instruction from the teacher) ever attained rainbow body.
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
In case that I am misinformed, I would be happy if someone could point out some rainbow body success stories of Westerner students to me!
Thank you very much!
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
In case that I am misinformed, I would be happy if someone could point out some rainbow body success stories of Westerner students to me!
Thank you very much!
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Yup, I guess Dzogchen just doesn't work for westerners. Better move along, nothing to see here.ZOOM wrote:I never heard that even one of all the Westerner Dzogchen practitioners (no matter if they are in an official lineage, have an official teacher, got direct "empowernment" or instruction from the teacher) ever attained rainbow body.
This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
In case that I am misinformed, I would be happy if someone could point out some rainbow body success stories of Westerner students to me!
Thank you very much!
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Deja vu all over again...
I think I liked Dzogchen/Buddhism better when I wasn't reading and participating in these message boards.
I think I'll go back to that for now.
I think I liked Dzogchen/Buddhism better when I wasn't reading and participating in these message boards.
I think I'll go back to that for now.
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment.This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
furthermore, people making progress on the Path, evolving and maturing in a Dharma direction, is validation enough for me of the efficacy of the Path. The lower yanas are still Dharma. You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen. It reminds me of the people that base their financial planning on winning the lottery. Better to get a job. You can still buy lottery tickets, just have a Plan B that is more assured to work.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
I agree, it is a big mistake to think that masters that don't manifest a rainbow body are not realized.smcj wrote:I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment.This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
smcj wrote:I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment for that matter.This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
Furthermore, people making progress on the Path, evolving and maturing in a Dharma direction, is validation enough for me of the efficacy of the Path. The lower yanas are still Dharma. You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen. It reminds me of the people that base their financial planning on winning the lottery. Better to get a job, save and invest your earnings (dedicate the merit). You can still buy lottery tickets if you like, there's no reason not to. Just have a Plan B that is more assured to work at the same time. Plus getting in closer proximity to the prize through the lower yanas may increase your chances of getting a winning ticket...
Just saying'...
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
No we don't. Dzogchen is our path. It is not yours, and that's ok.smcj wrote:You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen.
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Dzogchen is not a "lottery ticket". Dzogchen is a totally complete path from A to Z and it is not lacking a single thing (including dedication of merit), so you don't need to be worried about Dzogchen practicioners. Especially when you so often comment that you know very little about Dzogchen and also don't practice Dzogchen yourself.smcj wrote:smcj wrote:I disagree that the rainbow body phenomena is the the only validation to the mastery of Dzogchen realization, or any style/level of enlightenment for that matter.This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
Furthermore, people making progress on the Path, evolving and maturing in a Dharma direction, is validation enough for me of the efficacy of the Path. The lower yanas are still Dharma. You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen. It reminds me of the people that base their financial planning on winning the lottery. Better to get a job, save and invest your earnings (dedicate the merit). You can still buy lottery tickets if you like, there's no reason not to. Just have a Plan B that is more assured to work at the same time.
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Malcolm wrote:Dzogchen is our path. It is not yours, and that's ok.You guys make too much of a big thing about Dzogchen.
I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. And I would wager that it would meet the approval of most of your own teachers. The language may be overly emphatic, but the perspective is pretty standard.Malcolm wrote:Yup, I guess Dzogchen just doesn't work for westerners. Better move along, nothing to see here.Zoom wrote:This poor success rate for Westerners (0.000%) seems very disconcerting and leads to a lot of questions.
You are welcome to try a revised response to Zoom again.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Are you high?smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. You are welcome to try it again.
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
No, Gelug/Kagyu.Malcolm wrote:Are you high?smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. You are welcome to try it again.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
I was being sarcastic because his comment was not serious. In fact, none of his comments have been serious.smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Right, and so your interest in the Dzogchen forum is?smcj wrote:No, Gelug/Kagyu.Malcolm wrote:Are you high?smcj wrote: I think my response to Zoom was better than yours. You are welcome to try it again.
Re: Why do only very few practitioners attain rainbow body?
Malcolm has a point smcj, this is the Dzogchen sub forum and as such one must take into account the rule in the Moderation changes / modifications thread:
2. People are free to question the teachings and traditional interpretations in Open Dharma subforum as has mostly been happening. Questions about a practice, a teaching or belief are appropriate in the specific subforum where the practice belongs, but criticisms belong in Open Dharma only and should be done sensitively, where possible with reference to the appropriate teachings. For example, do not challenge the core Dharma concepts and principles of Pure Land Buddhism in the Pure Land subforum and the same goes with the other specific traditions as well.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde