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About the complaints procedure ... - Dhamma Wheel

About the complaints procedure ...

Tell us how you think the forum can be improved. We will listen.
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Jechbi
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About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Jechbi » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:47 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:12 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Ben » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:16 am

Hi Jechbi

Thanks for your input. What I want to clarify is if there is anything anyone is concerned about, regarding another person's behaviour, then they should use the report function and the mod/admin team will look at it. And sometimes in a heated discussion, a situation may require a third party to assess the situation. And different people are at different stages and any conversation on Dhamma Wheel should be respectful. Our aim when Dhamma Wheel was set up was to provide a safe, respectful and friendly environment where everyone was empowered to self moderate. And to your, everyone's great credit, that's what the vast majority of our members do. The problem with calling out another member's behaviour in-thread or attempting to discuss a moderation decision (or perceived lack of action) in thread is that, as retro said in the complaints procedure, it takes it off topic and creates a sideshow in its own right.

Another thing i want to highlight is the focus of the complaints procedure is to provide an avenue for members to raise their concerns regarding moderating decisions and for members to feel comfortable doing that.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Mawkish1983
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:56 am

The complaints procedure seems pretty sensible to me. I hope we never have to use it.

EDIT: My only thought is that within the Complaints Procedure maybe the names of the moderators and admin could be listed (perhaps with URLs to PM them)? I personallly am not sure who is admin (the Red-uniformed ones, TheDhamma and Retro?) and who are the moderators (the Green-uniformed ones, Tilt, Ben, Dhammanando, etc?). I'm guessing. I think I need to brush up on my ToS!!!

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retrofuturist
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:48 am

Greetings Mawkish,

At the bottom of this topic there's a yellow bar which has a link which says "The team" ( memberlist.php?mode=leaders ) and that's where the moderators and administrators are listed.

It's pretty much as you said except that jcsuperstar has moderator access to the Study Group to allow him to lead that, close the old topics, update the schedule etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Cittasanto
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:16 pm

hi Jechbi
Warts and all are part and parcel of the practice, seeing others flawed behaviour enables us to reflect on ours as well as see what isn't flawed behaviour is.

no one is perfect and expecting all members and moderators to be so is expecting people to be enlightened, maybe one solution I have had disagreements with a mod which wasn't against the terms of service, or off topic, and the discussion was that a bit of funwhich ended before it could of gotten out of hand.

I do agree it would be better to address a complaint to the person, instead of going behind there back, and I have reported in some cases accidentally, not realising there was the cancel button, or I could of back tracked [insert slapping own face emoticon here], maybe one option would be att times another room room where this could happen openly and doesn't distract from the thread, this would potentially allow the members involved to reach a compromise and in other cases allow others to input productively for the original participants to see how they were both wrong, although this does have the draw back of being a place where other users take sides and flames happen more openly and aggressively.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Jechbi
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Jechbi » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:02 pm

Good responses here. I was giving this some more thought. The complaints procedure doesn't mention post deletion, but that is a powerful moderation tool, and it seems to be an outcome sometimes of complaints about posts. Earlier, I made the suggestion that posts should not be deleted by mods except in the most egregious cases. I'd like to amend that suggestion. How about if posts are never deleted by mods under any circumstances?

Personally, I like that idea for several reasons. One is that, for the most part, we can tell when a post is inappropriate or ill-advised. So if we know our crummy posts are going to continue to exist until we ourselves delete them, then hiri-ottapa comes more into play. This would make the board more of a Dhamma practice, where the effects of our bad kamma are visible to us, and we have to live with them until we choose to change our own kamma.

Another is that there's no way to "unsay" something that's been said, so post deletion by moderator action is a way of trying to change our reality. In real life, there's no moderator to come in and delete the bad things that happen to us. We have to live with them. I think this board would be more conducive to Dhamma practice if it more closely resembled reality in that way. Hearing the Dhamma, discussing the Dhamma and interacting with others is not going to be comfortable 100% of the time, and we're going to hear things we don't like. Part of Dhamma practice is dealing with that. Part of Dhamma practice also is dealing with our aversion to that, with our desire to make it go away. If a mod steps in and makes it go away for us, then we lose that opportunity for practice.

There will be times when a member gets way out of hand and become abusive. My suggestion would be: ban the member for violating the TOS if necessary, but let his or her abuse stand without deletion. Even foul language, slander, falsehoods, let them stand for all to see. That, in my opinion, would make this board a more effective place to really dig in and practice Dhamma.

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appicchato
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby appicchato » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:56 pm

Do I agree with the above?...yes, I do... :coffee:

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cooran
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby cooran » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:33 pm

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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retrofuturist
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:08 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Jechbi
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Jechbi » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:25 am


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Ben
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:45 am

Hi Jechbi

With great respect, I can't support what you are suggesting. Sorry mate! One of the reasons that DW works so well is that its members do feel that they're in a respectful and friendly environment. My observation is that if we don't maintain an environment that is conducive to mutual respect and friendliness, the quality of the discussion (and membership) falls away. I witnessed one 'Buddhist' discussion board that operated under conditions that you recommend. When I witnessed tricycle it was anarchic and became the haunt of some very nasty trolls who shouted down and harranged anyone who had an alternative point of view.
Please keep in mind that not everyone is where you're at, and while you might be ok about having unwholesome things stated about you or your posts, others may not.

Also, if you have concerns relating to posts being deleted, please feel free to contact the mods or admins. I don't think it happens all that often. And to provide some perspective, I deleted a thread that I started on the weekend (Dawin award contestants caught on TV) because in retrospect I felt that it was probably a lightning rod for defilements. With regards to other post deletions they are almost always to do with breaches of the TOS.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:22 am

There's an old saying, if it ain't broke don't fix it!

:anjali:


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Jechbi
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Jechbi » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:55 am


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Ben
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Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:40 am

Hi Jechbi

Nice post.
Like you, I tend to call a spade a spade and I think the way that we relate to each other here is probably very similar to the real world where there is a degree of robustness in our communications that is tempered by respect. But I guess the robustness of our discussion is going to be measured out by how well we know someone. isn't it? I've got no problem with you or some of my other friends on DW taking me to task on my views or behaviour. And that's fine. The issue is when near-complete strangers start behaving in a grossly unwholesome fashion.

I don't want anyone here to feel like they're walking on eggshells or that the mod team is looking over everyone's shoulders ensuring absolute compliance to the minutae of the TOS. Like you, we're here to discuss the Dhamma. Acts of moderation are unfortunate and for the most part, rare.
Cheers

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Mawkish1983
Posts: 1286
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: About the complaints procedure ...

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:46 am



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