Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:18 am

In my mind, there are three ways to lose bodhicitta:
(1) when you mix with bad company and revert back to the ways of the world, convinced that the Buddha dharma is false, or of no help in your life.
(2) when you get discouraged either because the bodhisattva path seems plagued with so much insurmountable obstacles or when those whom you have helped not only display no gratitude but instead turn against you, and make you question why you bother to help in the first place.
(3) when you are not intellectually superior compared to the company you keep.

I believe it is (3) where there is the danger of losing one's bodhicitta in the sense that one lost one's aspiration to practise the Dharma for the benefit of others and instead revert to practising only for the benefit of oneself.

Imagine that you keep company with those who strongly believe that the Buddha taught mainly to get people to liberate themselves and that, unless you are an exceptional being like the Buddha, you are only kidding yourself, or worse, you are actually nursing unwittingly a kind of ego or pride. If you are intellectually inferior, the people around you eventually will convert you to their way of thinking. Even Asanga was afraid that his brother Vasubhandu, with his superior intellect, would end up converting followerers of the Mahayana and therefore took action to convert Vasubhandu to the Mahayana.

For those bodhisattvas who have direct experience of the true nature of reality, there is no danger of losing their bodhicitta. In fact, it would be impossible.
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:25 am

Sherab wrote:For those bodhisattvas who have direct experience of the true nature of reality, there is no danger of losing their bodhicitta. In fact, it would be impossible.


The thought of awakening becomes irreversible when, ... the mighty one enters into the stage called "The Immovable" (8th bhumi)

Candrakirti




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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:11 am

TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:PS As a Mahyana-ist I suppose you would be aware of the fact that bohicitta arises as a consequence of the tathagatagarbha. But since all beings have this intrinsic enlightened nature then one cannot lose it, and one does not gain it.


As a Mahayana follower I do not hold such a view.
Well that's just too bad. So you are saying that not all sentient beings have the potential to achieve enlightenment? Only some sentient beings have this capacity? You for example? :shock:

That's an interesting variant of the Mahayana you are following! Care to tell us which school that is?
:namaste:

PS Did you just quote a Theravadra Sutta to support your view that you do not support a Mahayana view?
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:17 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:PS As a Mahyana-ist I suppose you would be aware of the fact that bohicitta arises as a consequence of the tathagatagarbha. But since all beings have this intrinsic enlightened nature then one cannot lose it, and one does not gain it.


As a Mahayana follower I do not hold such a view.
Well that's just too bad. So you are saying that not all sentient beings have the potential to achieve enlightenment? Only some sentient beings have this capacity? You for example? :shock:

Your conclusions are invalid since ungrounded. You are conceptually constructing a link between the view you hold and enlightenment.
I say: The one who practices the right path will attain enlightenment.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:57 am

TMingyur wrote:Your conclusions are invalid since ungrounded. You are conceptually constructing a link between the view you hold and enlightenment.
I say: The one who practices the right path will attain enlightenment.
Let's see if I can guess the logical conclusion of your statement... Ummmmmmmm... the right path that leads to enlightenment is your path??? Did I guess right? Hmmmmmm....?
So care to answer my previous question and kindly inform us dribbling morons which path again it is that we should be following? Pretty please?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:15 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Your conclusions are invalid since ungrounded. You are conceptually constructing a link between the view you hold and enlightenment.
I say: The one who practices the right path will attain enlightenment.
Let's see if I can guess the logical conclusion of your statement... Ummmmmmmm... the right path that leads to enlightenment is your path??? Did I guess right? Hmmmmmm....?

There is no path that is "mine". However there are teachings given by the wise that teach the path.


gregkavarnos wrote:So care to answer my previous question and kindly inform us dribbling morons which path again it is that we should be following? Pretty please? :namaste:

Lama Tsongkhapa recommends to practice: renunciation, bodhicitta, wisdom. See if his advice resonates with you.


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:38 am

TMingyur wrote:Lama Tsongkhapa recommends to practice: renunciation, bodhicitta, wisdom. See if his advice resonates with you.
Oh dear, I should have seen this comin' from a mile away! I mean Buddha knows we've all seen this a million times before!
Right, I'm outta here. In closing I wish you luck in extricating yourself from the knotted cords that bind you!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:40 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Lama Tsongkhapa recommends to practice: renunciation, bodhicitta, wisdom. See if his advice resonates with you.
Oh dear, I should have seen this comin' from a mile away! I mean Buddha knows we've all seen this a million times before!
Right, I'm outta here. In closing I wish you luck in extricating yourself from the knotted cords that bind you!
:namaste:


:?:

You asked me and I gave a proposal. Now you are not satisfied.

Please tell me what proposal I shall give you.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:59 am

TMingyur wrote:You asked me and I gave a proposal. Now you are not satisfied.

Please tell me what proposal I shall give you.
Dude there ain't nothing the New Kadampa Clan can propose that can lead to a satisfactory understanding of the Dharma/Dhamma. Thank you for the offer though.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:04 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:You asked me and I gave a proposal. Now you are not satisfied.

Please tell me what proposal I shall give you.
Dude there ain't nothing the New Kadampa Clan can propose that can lead to a satisfactory understanding of the Dharma/Dhamma. Thank you for the offer though.
:namaste:


This is really astonishing.

I am listening to Kagyue, Nyingma and Gelug teachers. Sectarianism pollutes the minds of many.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:12 am

TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
TMingyur wrote:You asked me and I gave a proposal. Now you are not satisfied.

Please tell me what proposal I shall give you.
Dude there ain't nothing the New Kadampa Clan can propose that can lead to a satisfactory understanding of the Dharma/Dhamma. Thank you for the offer though.
:namaste:


This is really astonishing.

I am listening to Kagyue, Nyingma and Gelug teachers. Sectarianism pollutes the minds of many.

Kind regards
And none of them happened to mention the centrality of the notion of the Tathagatagarbha to the Bodhisattvayana? Or were they just expressing views when they did so?
Gimme a break!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:15 am

gregkavarnos wrote:And none of them happened to mention the centrality of the notion of the Tathagatagarbha to the Bodhisattvayana? Or were they just expressing views when they did so?
Gimme a break!
:namaste:


When I say that I "listen to Kagyue, Nyingma and Gelug teachers"

This does not exclude
1. that I am selecting specific topics as to their teachings
2. that I do not adopt all of their views

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:06 pm

TMingyur wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:And none of them happened to mention the centrality of the notion of the Tathagatagarbha to the Bodhisattvayana? Or were they just expressing views when they did so?
Gimme a break!
:namaste:


When I say that I "listen to Kagyue, Nyingma and Gelug teachers"

This does not exclude
1. that I am selecting specific topics as to their teachings
2. that I do not adopt all of their views

Kind regards
Jack of all trades master of none. Want some advice? Since you have a "thing" for Tsongkhapa find yourself a qualified and experienced Gelug lama, take refuge with them and then beg them to give you the mantra and sadhana of golden Manjushri (or Yamantaka).

Only good will come of this course of action!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:14 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Jack of all trades master of none. Want some advice? Since you have a "thing" for Tsongkhapa find yourself a qualified and experienced Gelug lama, take refuge with them and then beg them to give you the mantra and sadhana of golden Manjushri (or Yamantaka).

Only good will come of this course of action!
:namaste:


Well actually with the eclecticism approach I am walking in the foot steps of Lama Tsongkhapa who took the same approach.

And thanks for the advice. But currently I am happy with my approach.

And I have a very good measure ... a "gold standard" so to say which are the teachings of the Buddha in the suttas of the pali canon.


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:39 pm

TMingyur wrote:Well actually with the eclecticism approach I am walking in the foot steps of Lama Tsongkhapa who took the same approach.

And thanks for the advice. But currently I am happy with my approach.
How can a practice that puts you in direct contact with the mind of the Bodhisattva of wisdom not benefit even your "eclectic approach"? How will this practice make you different from Lama Tsongkhapa?

Your statements, though, reveal a fundamental flaw in your approach: You are under the delusion that a "you" is walking a "path" and that because this deluded/ignorant "you" is happy that means that everything is going just fine...

Here are some words of advice from a true Bodhisattva (and not just another deluded twit like me)
Practising without ego-centred motivation
by Lama Gendun Rinpoche

One of the main defects of a practitioner comes from thinking, "I am the one who is practising, so I am the one who will realise this and that through my practice". As long as we think that we are the ones who practise and that any outcome will be because we made the necessary effort, we are completely in the wrong. Nothing will result from that except more ego-clinging and self-importance.

We should think quite the opposite: that everything that emerges in our practice does so thanks to the Dharma. All the qualities that appear are only because of the Dharma. It is only through the quality, the power and purity of the Dharma itself that something can change in us. This is the way all the great bodhisattvas have practised. There is nothing that comes from the individual — things emerge because of the quality of the teaching. It is through his relationship with the Dharma that an ordinary practitioner can transform himself and become a great bodhisattva. All the qualities that emerge in a great bodhisattva have nothing to do with the individual person. They are the same qualities that are to be found in all bodhisattvas, because they come from the same Dharma, they express the quality of the teaching itself.

We should be happy and think, "Now I have decided definitely to practise the Dharma, there is nothing else that interests me in this life, I want to dedicate my life totally to this. Whatever comes out of my practice is thanks to the Dharma, it has nothing to do with me. I am not going to take pride in the results as if they were mine." When we surrender ourselves in this way and just practise the Dharma with no speculations about the outcome, we completely abandon ourselves to the practice. We are not expecting something out of it. We abandon all attachment to experiences and results of practice and engage in Dharma activity. This is when true experiences and realisations can develop.

But first we have to completely give up this feeling of "I am doing something, I am getting results", always bringing everything back to the "I". If we do this, we are just nourishing the ego-feeling, which shows a lack of confidence in the teaching. If we have complete confidence in the Dharma, we no longer have any feeling of "I". We just do the practice, and then the Dharma starts to work and real transformation takes place. This is the only way that experiences and realisation can develop.

We can measure the progress of our practice like this. If we think, "I have practised and I have realised that", then the only result of our practice is that our I-feeling is getting coarser and coarser, so our practice is completely wrong, since the very purpose of the Dharma is to reduce the influence of the ego. But if we think "I am not a good practitioner, I have no real qualities myself", that shows that our feeling of "I" is growing smaller and more subtle and that we are becoming a genuine practitioner. A real Dharma practitioner is someone who is constantly putting aside his own benefit and concern for himself.


And I have a very good measure ... a "gold standard" so to say which are the teachings of the Buddha in the suttas of the pali canon.
Can't go wrong there!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Astus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:27 pm

I believe there's enough said about the Pali Canon and bodhicitta, plus that discussion has stopped. Now the thread is locked.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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