Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:41 pm

There is no teaching about bodhicitta in the sutta pitaka.

What utter nonsense:
Etymologically, the word is a combination of the Sanskrit words bodhi and citta. Bodhi means "awakening" or "enlightenment". Citta is derived from the Sanskrit root cit, and denotes "that which is conscious" – mind or consciousness. Bodhicitta may be translated as "awakening mind" or "mind of enlightenment".
There is no reference to the enlightened mind in the sutta pitaka?
Seems to be a distinct case of the blind leading the blind in this thread!
:namaste:
PS As a Mahyana-ist I suppose you would be aware of the fact that bohicitta arises as a consequence of the tathagatagarbha. But since all beings have this intrinsic enlightened nature then one cannot lose it, and one does not gain it.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:46 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Seems to be a distinct case of the blind leading the blind in this thread!
:namaste:


Seems to be a trend to betray the Mahayana. Maybe those of sravaka lineage who have missed the right vehicle (for them) are afterwards trying to hide their delusion by messing up everything through sophistry.
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:48 pm

TMingyur wrote:Seems to be a trend to betray the Mahayana. Maybe those of sravaka lineage who have missed the right vehicle (for them) are afterwards trying to hide their delusion by messing up everything through sophistry.
Who betrays what?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:53 pm

Hanzze has succeeded.

Congratulation Hanzze!

Go tell your friends about the controversy in the Mahayana.

And I have to say that one thing I really appreciate about the Theravada and the corresponding neighboring forum: they do have one common basis.


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:07 pm

Dear TMingyur,

I dont know.

Let me ask in an other way.

Two kinds of Boddhisatvas:

One Boddhisatva learning the teaching of the elders, and teaching others of the lineage in this way. Teaching them about a different and less about the Buddha motivation.

Could it be that this Boddhisatva is braking his vows form a Mahayana view?
Could it be that he has/develops some different intension (as just to free others from suffering) in his explanations and therefore it could be a kind of lie what is not wholesome (from both views)?
Could it be that he divides the sangha in this way?

The other Boddhisatva is learning the teaching of the elders, and search for the Buddha motivation in it, to explain it also to those attached to a free of suffering of one self fist. His intention is just to use the right language, nothing changed in his heart.

Could it be that this Boddhisatva is braking his vows form a Mahayana view?
Could it be that he has/develops some different intension (as just to free others from suffering) in his explanations and therefore it could be a kind of lie what is not wholesome (from both views)?
Could it be that he divides the sangha in this way?

What do you think?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:16 pm

Hanzze wrote:What do you think?


Hanzze

please accept my apologies but I would like to resign form this discussion.
I do not want to discuss with a non-Mahayanist while being attacked from the rear by "wanna-be Mahayanists" or "Mahayana pretenders" or Mahayanists lacking discerning wisdom.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:24 pm

Dear TMingyur,

what makes you believe that I have not taken the Boddhisatva vows? What makes somebody or something to an enemie for you.

Does such a act to discriminate break the vows?

Please dont get me wrong and try to read just the words and dont think on a picture of a person like me. Do not interpret, as it could be wrong.
For sure it is better if I leave, if it makes you to calm down.

In any way, I guess you discuss it further without "enemies" and "friends". I have neither, it is only just what you your self makes out of you ideas.
I am not well in giving blessing verbal, so I make just with my heart.

_/\_
with loving kindness
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:27 pm

Hanzze

Can you please accept what I said?

I have no enemies and I did not speculate about vows you have taken or not.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:35 pm

Blinded by the veils of emotion,
One loses sight of compassion.
The fires rage fanned by the wind of ignorance
burning all hope for enlightenment.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby swampflower » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:24 pm

It may be useful to clarify some points about Bodhisattvas. This is from the Berzin Archives.
For the complete text please see the web site.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... edges.html
Please note especially #6 of the 18 Root Downfalls which seems to be important to this discussion.

Bodhisattvas are those with bodhichitta (byang-sems) - a heart totally dedicated to others and to achieving enlightenment in order to benefit them as fully as possible. There are two levels of bodhichitta:
1. aspiring (smon-sems),
2. engaged ('jug-sems).
Aspiring bodhichitta is the strong wish to overcome our shortcomings and realize our potentials to benefit everyone. Engaged bodhichitta means engaging in the practices that bring about this goal and taking bodhisattva vows to restrain from actions detrimental to it.
Aspiring bodhichitta has two stages:
1. merely wishing to become a Buddha for the benefit of others (smon-sems smon-pa-tsam),
2. pledging never to abandon this aim until it is achieved (smon-sems dam-bca'-can).
With the pledged state of bodhichitta, we promise to train in five actions that help us never to lose our resolve. Developing the merely wishing state does not involve this promise. The first four trainings help our bodhichitta resolve not to decline during this lifetime. The fifth training helps us not to lose our resolve in future lives.
(1) Each day and night, recalling the advantages of the bodhichitta motivation.
(2) Reaffirming and strengthening this motivation by rededicating our hearts to enlightenment and others three times each day and three times each night.
(3) Striving to strengthen enlightenment-building networks of positive force and deep awareness (collections of merit and insight).
(4) Never giving up trying to help anyone, or at least wishing to be able to do so, no matter how difficult he or she may be.
The fifth point for training entails ridding ourselves of four types of murky behavior (nag-po'i chos-bzhi, four "black" actions) and adopting four glowing ones (dkar-po'i chos-bzhi, four "white" actions) instead.
(1) Stopping ever deceiving our spiritual teachers, parents, or the Triple Gem. Instead, always being honest with them, especially about our motivation and efforts to help others.
(2) Stopping ever faulting or being contemptuous of bodhisattvas. Instead, since only Buddhas can be certain who actually are bodhisattvas, regarding everyone in a pure way as our teachers.
(3) Stopping ever causing others to regret anything positive they have done. Instead, encouraging others to be constructive and, if receptive, to work on overcoming their shortcomings and realizing their potentials to be of more benefit to everyone.
(4) Stopping ever being hypocritical or pretentious in our dealings with others, in other words hiding our faults and pretending to have qualities we lack. Instead, taking responsibility to help others, always being honest and frank about our limitations and abilities.
Of the two stages of developing bodhichitta, aspiring (smon-pa'i sems-bskyed) and engaged (' jug-pa'i sems-bskyed), only with the latter do we take the bodhisattva vows.
Taking bodhisattva vows (byang-sems sdom-pa) entails promising to restrain from two sets of negative acts that Buddha prohibited for those training as bodhisattvas to reach enlightenment and to be of as much benefit to others as is possible:
1. eighteen actions that, if committed, constitute a root downfall (byang-sems-kyi tsa-ltung),
2. forty-six types of faulty behavior (nyes-byas).
The Eighteen Bodhisattva Root Downfalls
(1) Praising ourselves and/or belittling others
(2) Not sharing Dharma teachings or wealth
(3) Not listening to others' apologies or striking others
(4) Discarding the Mahayana teachings and propounding made-up ones
(5) Taking offerings intended for the Triple Gem
(6) Forsaking the holy Dharma
Here the downfall is to repudiate or, by voicing our opinions, cause others to repudiate that the scriptural teachings of the shravaka (nyan-thos), pratyekabuddha (rang-rgyal), or bodhisattva vehicles are the Buddha's words. Shravakas are those who listen to a Buddha's teachings while they are still extant, while pratyekabuddhas are self-evolving practitioners who live primarily during dark ages when the Dharma is no longer directly available. To make spiritual progress, they rely on intuitive understanding gained from study and practice conducted during previous lives. The teachings for both of them collectively constitute the Hinayana, or "modest vehicle" for gaining personal liberation from samsara. The Mahayana vehicle emphasizes methods for attaining full enlightenment. Denying that all or just certain scriptures of either vehicle derive from the Buddha is a root downfall.
(7) Disrobing monastics or committing such acts as stealing their robes
(8) Committing any of the five heinous crimes
(9) Holding a distorted, antagonistic outlook
(10) Destroying places such as towns
(11) Teaching voidness to those whose minds are untrained
(12) Turning others away from full enlightenment
(13) Turning others away from their pratimoksha vows
(14) Belittling the shravaka vehicle
(15) Proclaiming a false realization of voidness
(16) Accepting what has been stolen from the Triple Gem
(17) Establishing unfair policies
(18) Giving up bodhichitta
From Berzin Archives
:namaste:
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Astus » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:46 pm

"However there are teachings about bodhicitta in the sutras and commentaries of the Mahayana."

There are also a couple of Mahayana sutras and other texts not dealing with bodhicitta. There are also other texts within Mahayana teaching about an even higher path than the bodhisattvayana.

The Abhidharmakosabhasyam (vol. 2, chapter 4., section VI., verses 108-112, p. 690-694), containing both Vaibhasika and Sautrantika teachings, elaborates on what a bodhisattva is and what such a being practices to achieve buddhahood. Naturally it mentions both bodhicitta and the paramitas.

Here's an analysis of the paramitas and the bodhisattva path within Theravada by Acariya Dhammaphala: A Treatise on the Paramis - From the Commentary to the Cariyapitaka

See this very fine essay by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi that clarifies certain points about common misunderstandings: Arahants, Bodhisattvas, and Buddhas
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:52 pm

Astus wrote:"However there are teachings about bodhicitta in the sutras and commentaries of the Mahayana."

There are also a couple of Mahayana sutras and other texts not dealing with bodhicitta.

C'mon. I did not write that all sutras teach about bodhicitta.

Astus wrote:There are also other texts within Mahayana teaching about an even higher path than the bodhisattvayana.

I think you are mixing up "bodhisattvayana" and "sutrayana". Of cours the vajrayana also is "bodhisattvayana" but not "sutrayana". Mahayana necessarily is "bodhisattvayana".

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Astus » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:03 pm

I think you are mixing up "bodhisattvayana" and "sutrayana".

Not exactly. Vajrayana does have the attitude of putting itself higher than what was generally understood as the bodhisattva path, but that is a debate or discussion for a different thread. But I can point to East-Asian Mahayana teachings about the Ultimate Path, the Tathagata Vehicle, the sudden and perfect teaching found within Tiantai, Huayan and Chan.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:13 pm

Astus wrote:I think you are mixing up "bodhisattvayana" and "sutrayana".

Not exactly. Vajrayana does have the attitude of putting itself higher than what was generally understood as the bodhisattva path, but that is a debate or discussion for a different thread.

the "generally understood" most likely refers to "paramitayana" as understood in the sutras. As to the practice of the paramitas there actually are different views concerning the practice of these in vajrayana. But vajrayana is a path to buddhahood to be able to benefit beings and thus it is a "bodhisattvayana" supported by bodhicitta (motivation).

Astus wrote:But I can point to East-Asian Mahayana teachings about the Ultimate Path, the Tathagata Vehicle, the sudden and perfect teaching found within Tiantai, Huayan and Chan.

Well all traditions have their highest and most ultimate paths. that is nothing special.


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:29 am

:spy: :thinking: :offtopic: :smile:
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:24 am

Advice to Kunzang Chogyal by Dza Patrul Rinpoche
Those who have realised very well that everywhere in Samsara is full of evil
like a basket of poisonous snakes
and wish to set out on the Path of True Liberation
all practice in this manner:

Firstly, since renunciation is the head of the Dharma-
Having realised that from the god-realm of Tushita above,
down to the three unfortunate realms below,
Samsara here is a pit of fire-
one must train in the Path of the Three Yanas.

In the middle, since bodhicitta is the body of the Dharma-
having realised that all these beings are our parents,
one must give birth to the heartfelt, unfeigned wish
to attain enlightenment for their sake.

Finally the Authentic View and its practice,
the legs of the Dharma, swiftly travelling the Path to freedom-
the Empty state, free of complexity, of all phenomena that appear or exist
is firmly established by scripture and one's own intelligence.

The root of all the phenomena of Samsara and Nirvana is one's own mind.
First, the Mind has no origin;
in the middle, it has no place where it stays;
finally, the natural state is free of coming and going.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby tobes » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:51 pm

Astus wrote:
See this very fine essay by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi that clarifies certain points about common misunderstandings: Arahants, Bodhisattvas, and Buddhas


Wow, that is a very fine essay.
:applause:
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby pueraeternus » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:17 pm

Actually I am not sure about this. The motivation and gotra are important in the paths, but so are the doctrines. The Bodhisattva certainly needs proficiency in the agamas and also in the Mahayana sutras and sastras. The Sravakas do not accept the Mahayana sutras, hence they would not learn those doctrines.

In Mahayana, the wisdom (ultimately attained) between the Sravakas and Bodhisattvas are not considered equal - the latter necessarily need a wider range and scope in order to eliminate the two obscurations.

Astus wrote:Just to re-emphasise what Swampflower said, the paths (sravaka, pratyeka, bodhisattva) are primarily about motivation and not doctrine. Compared to the sravaka way the extra what a bodhisattva does is the accumulation of merits. In terms of wisdom sravaka and bodhisattva are equal.
When I set out to lead humanity along my Golden Path I promised a lesson their bones would remember. I know a profound pattern humans deny with words even while their actions affirm it. They say they seek security and quiet, conditions they call peace. Even as they speak, they create seeds of turmoil and violence.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:12 am

gregkavarnos wrote:PS As a Mahyana-ist I suppose you would be aware of the fact that bohicitta arises as a consequence of the tathagatagarbha. But since all beings have this intrinsic enlightened nature then one cannot lose it, and one does not gain it.


As a Mahayana follower I do not hold such a view.


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:22 am

"And how is there the yoke of views? There is the case where a certain person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving.
...
"And how is there unyoking from views? There is the case where a certain person discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views. When he discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from views, then — with regard to views — he is not obsessed with view-passion, view-delight, view-attraction, view-infatuation, view-thirst, view-fever, view-fascination, view-craving. ...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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