Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:29 pm

The ignorant, clouded by their confusion,
Posit false notions of selfish and selfless,
Liberation of self and liberation of other,
Forgetful of the supreme view of the Conquerors
The emptiness of all phenomena.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:37 pm

Dear friends,

for example in the Brahma Net Sutra there are the 48 secondary precepts and there are those:

8. On turning Away from the Mahayana
15. Teaching Non-Mahayana Dharmas

As from my view, there are always simple and explainable reasons behind precepts in the Buddha Dharma, and I guess it is important to understand them. Otherwise it would run out like the first precept in Christan, which might be from benefit, but I am not sure.

So is there a danger to lose the Bodhicitta?
If so, why is it possible to loose the Bodhicitta?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:38 pm

Hanzze wrote:So is there a danger to lose the Bodhicitta?
If so, why is it possible to loose the Bodhicitta?


Because it is training that leads to perfection. Once perfected there is no danger anymore.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Astus » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:42 pm

There is no danger in losing bodhicitta because one studies the very teachings of the Buddha. In fact, bodhicitta is not a thing one can lose, but an attitude and view one has to develop and maintain. Shakyamuni was a perfect teacher and he had no problem at all with teaching so many things. How on earth could it be in any way dangerous to study them?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:45 pm

Are you gonna stop feeding the troll or you gonna adopt it ?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:32 pm

Dear Astra,

thanks for the correction: In fact, bodhicitta is not a thing one can lose, but an attitude and view one has to develop and maintain.

Sorry my lack of words. Thats why I used "mojo". So I ask about the motivation. Is it possible to loose the right motivation and is that the reason why some tell to abstain from it?

And what is the reason, that one could lose the "right" motivation?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Astus » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:40 pm

Hanzze,

How does this not answer your original question?

There is no danger in losing bodhicitta because one studies the very teachings of the Buddha.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:50 pm

Astus wrote:There is no danger in losing bodhicitta because one studies the very teachings of the Buddha.


First you must have bodhicitta before being able to lose it or not. And "the teachings of the Buddha" Hanzze refers to do not teach about bodhicitta at all. So what "teachings of the Buddha" do you refer to when saying "because one studies the very teachings of the Buddha."?

There is no teaching about bodhicitta in the sutta pitaka.

However there are teachings about bodhicitta in the sutras and commentaries of the Mahayana.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:58 pm

TMingyur wrote:However there are teachings about bodhicitta in the sutras and commentaries of the Mahayana.


And THAT is the reason why the Mahayana is supreme!


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:04 pm

Dear gregkavarnos,

there is a proverb: "Things that you says are mostly for yourself." and "Thinks you do not like in others have the roots, that they reflect something in your self."
It is not my intension to disturb, if you feel so, sorry for my lack of writing and my less intension to you.
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:08 pm

A being of the bodhisattva lineage was required to recognize the active bodhisattva nature of the Buddha Shakyamuni.

We do not know whether such beings were among the disciples of the Buddha. What we do know however is that not a single one of this supreme kind was involved in writing down the teachings of the Buddha nowadays known as the sutta pitaka.


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:11 pm

Dear Astra, dear TMingyur

now I am confused. One says, the bodhicitta can not be losed as it simply is. One says it need to be developed first.

Maybe you like to remember my discretion of: "dust over it"

So is it good when we say: the way of Bodhisattva is to get the dust from the bodhicitta?

So my question is: If there is the danger to get already cleaned dust again on the developed (cleaned) boddhicitta when one is much involved in the teaching of the pali canon? And why?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:12 pm

Hanzze

I do not know what you are talking about.

Bodhicitta is the altruistic intent to attain buddhahood for the benefit of beings.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:14 pm

Dear TMingyur,

I know
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:15 pm

Hanzze wrote:Dear TMingyur,

I know


Really? Then I do not understand your questions.
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:17 pm

Dear friends,

let me ask in an other way:

Is it possible to lose his altruistic intent to attain buddhahood for the benefit of beings (bodhicitta, mojo, metta, budo...) when somebody gets deep in some teachings of the pali canon?
And why?
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:19 pm

I repeat what you preferred to ignore:

TMingyur wrote:
Hanzze wrote:Dear friends,

it looks for me as it is just dangerous to lose his deep motivation. Why is that so by coming in contact with easy teaching, with logical understanding?

1. The state of "never-falling back" is attained on the eigth bhumi and the bodhissattva practices for three measureles kalpas (sutrayana).
2. The Buddha in the sutta pitaka also teaches that the qualities of people you are associating with will affect your own qualitities and therefore you should avoid the "unwise" which in the context of the Mahayana practitioner are self-centered and/or anti-Mahayanist people.
3. Living beings are innumerable and act improperly.

So to sumarize: endless duration of practice, bad influence of self-centered environment, limitless sentient beings to be liberated and their attitudes and behaviour towards the bodhisattva.

These are the reasons why a bodhisattva may lapse from the Mahayana and fall back to the Hinayana in the early and midterm stages of her/his carreer. Actually these are the reasons raised by all Hinayanists that are following the Theravada teachings (which is not Hinayana by nature) against the Mahayana. In most cases they hide their Hinayana motivation behind the argument "you have to help yourself before you can helf others". All Hinayanist share a fundamental incapacity to understand the function and workings of bodhicitta.


And Hanzze, investigate your own motivation why you as a non-Mahayanist are asking all those questions.

Are you interested in becoming a Mahayana practitioner or do you want to gain a neutral understanding of the Mahayana or do you want question the validity of the Mahayana?


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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:25 pm

But frankly speaking.

Those who will fall back actually are not of the bodhisattva lineage. They are of the sravaka lineage and therefore it is better for them "to fall back".

Those of the bodhisattva lineage will struggle to not fall back and therefore they will not fall back.

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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:31 pm

Dear TMingyur,

it would be very ignorant to read not after somebody is offering his time.
It just does not seam to be a general opinion and I am not sure if one could say that just one way is "wise". So I guess there is also another door. As we know, that precepts are made for "not understanding yet".

Maybe it is also good to explain the back round a little more, so that I can understand clear. Thanks for your patient.

Those of the bodhisattva lineage will struggle to not fall back and therefore they will not fall back.
My observing tells me different.


_/\_
with loving kindness
Just that! :-)
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Re: Why danger of Elder teachings for Mahayana follower?

Postby ground » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:34 pm

Hanzze wrote:
Those of the bodhisattva lineage will struggle to not fall back and therefore they will not fall back.
My observing tells me different.


ah .. and you think you are able to differentiate between beings of bodhisattva lineage and beings of sravaka lineage?

arrogance.


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