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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Huseng wrote:
There is nothing that I have to apologize for.


You have a lot to aplogize for. Pony-up, as we say.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
Chaz wrote:

MODS: I'll back off on my inflamtory rhetoric the very second I get an apology from this guy for being so insulting to my Guru.


Mods are far less important than your Bodhisattva Vows. I'm not being flippant or taking sides here, I am quite serious.

Again, I am wondering if this thread should be locked (in which case a clone may arise) or we see this played out.

If it is the latter, we must have adherence to ToS please.


Yeshe, I have no standing here on this forum, but the mods should go by their gut instinct in regard to whether or not a thread should be locked, asking themselves whether the content is of a constructive/deconstructive nature or the destructive variety from which there is nothing to gain, where the behavior of some posters is reminicent of being "Street Rat Crazy".

"Street Rat Crazy" can be described as the frustration that is experienced right before a person loses total control, typically used to describe the reaction to physiological and/or psychological changes, such as male and female menopause (the former), or when someone is too thick headed to realize when they have come across something they can't handle (the latter), in this instance any challenge to the orthodoxy of Buddhist doctrine and belief.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:43 pm 
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Huseng wrote:
If your teacher truly asserts that clinging and ignorance do not lead to rebirth, they are mistaken. If you insist on upholding your teacher's mistaken views, then you only hurt yourself.


Again, I don't believe that his teacher teaches this. I find it quite possible that he does not explicitly mention it though.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:44 pm 
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This thread doesn't have to be locked if people actually take the time to cite their arguments

And what's Huseng have to apologize for? Pointing out Adharma with citations from scripture, commentary, current academic findings...etc?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Pero wrote:
Huseng wrote:
If your teacher truly asserts that clinging and ignorance do not lead to rebirth, they are mistaken. If you insist on upholding your teacher's mistaken views, then you only hurt yourself.


Again, I don't believe that his teacher teaches this. I find it quite possible that he does not explicitly mention it though.


Sure, but according to Chaz this is the case.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Chaz wrote:
The thing is, some people will have a lot of trouble getting their heads around certain Buddhist concepts such as rebirth and karma. My feeling is that they have no present capacity for those sorts of things. Like anyone else, they will gravitate towards teachers who can teach them in a way that they can connect with. If you can't personally accept the idea of literal rebirth, a teacher who places such teachings front-and-center isn't a particularly good fit. To try and force such a student to endure such personally unacceptable teachings is quite pointless and not particularly skillfull. There is much apart from rebirth in the Buddha's teaching that such a student can grasp and practice.

That part sounds sensible. I agree that people should only learn what they are ready for.

I don't think any lamas force students to believe certain things. They know they can't force anything.

However, they may give talks in which they talk about karma and rebirth casually as givens, but the people in the audience are still free to disagree or to leave at any time.

Chaz wrote:
Far more important things I might add.

I'll have to disagree with you there.

Chaz wrote:
To insist that such a student adopt a certain belief before they can call themselves a Buddhist is, and I'm sorry to have to use the word, just plain stupid.

I think many of us understand when new Buddhists take an agnostic position on many of these issues--that's fine and understandable. But I don't think that a person who absolutely rejects karma and rebirth can be called a Buddhist.

Chaz wrote:
That's great and the book is on the list, but tell me .......

In light of this thread becoming an excercise in stating who is qualified to teach the Dharma and who isn't, please tell me what qualifies Ven Ledi to teach on the subject?

If you want to talk about credentials, then let's look at the teachings of H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. He was one of the greatest Buddhist masters to live in modern times and was one of H.H. the Dalai Lama's main gurus. Since you believe in Vajrayana, these should be enough qualifications for you.

Anyway, here is a quote from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche:
"Ignorance here means ignorance of our own Buddha-nature. In this respect, we are ignorant as a beggar with a precious jewel in his hand who, not recognizing how valuable it is, simply throws it away. It is because of this ignorance that we are blind to the law of cause and effect and refuse to believe that every action has a result. It is because of ignorance that we cannot accept the existence of past and future lives. It is because of ignorance that we have no confidence in the beneficial results of praying to the Three Jewels. It is because of ignorance that we do not recognize the truth of Dharma. Ignorance is at the very root of the eighty-four thousand negative emotions, for as long as we fail to see that the true nature of everything is voidness, we insist on believing that things really exist; and this is the source of all deluded perceptions and all negative thoughts."
(I already posted this in another thread.)
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2675

I don't think it gets any clearer than that...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:00 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
This thread doesn't have to be locked if people actually take the time to cite their arguments

And what's Huseng have to apologize for? Pointing out Adharma with citations from scripture, commentary, current academic findings...etc?



Gordo, once agin, you must be joking.

Huseng isn't pointing out anything. He can't point out adharma because none has been presented to him in regards to my teacher. I mere said that the teaching I recieved was not what he believes and he starts in on my teacher. He doesn't have a clue about what he's talking about AND he's being very insulting about it.

Is your position official? Can I expect no satisfaction in this matter?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:03 pm 
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Luke wrote:
Anyway, here is a quote from Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche:
"Ignorance here means ignorance of our own Buddha-nature. In this respect, we are ignorant as a beggar with a precious jewel in his hand who, not recognizing how valuable it is, simply throws it away. It is because of this ignorance that we are blind to the law of cause and effect and refuse to believe that every action has a result. It is because of ignorance that we cannot accept the existence of past and future lives. It is because of ignorance that we have no confidence in the beneficial results of praying to the Three Jewels. It is because of ignorance that we do not recognize the truth of Dharma. Ignorance is at the very root of the eighty-four thousand negative emotions, for as long as we fail to see that the true nature of everything is voidness, we insist on believing that things really exist; and this is the source of all deluded perceptions and all negative thoughts."
(I already posted this in another thread.)
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2675


And my guru received lineage transmissions from DKR as well, so maybe you should tell me, how is my teacher unqualified or somehow lacking in the basics? Would DKR empower such a student?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Erm... perhaps we could all use a refresher course on the Bodhisattva Vows?

The Eighteen Bodhisattva Root Downfalls

(1) Praising ourselves and/or belittling others

This downfall refers to speaking such words to someone in an inferior position. The motivation must contain either desire for profit, praise, love, respect, and so on from the person addressed, or jealousy of the person belittled. It makes no difference whether what we say is true or false. Professionals who advertise that they are Buddhists need to take care about committing this downfall...

...(18) Giving up bodhichitta

This is abandoning the wish to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all. Of the two levels of bodhichitta, aspiring and involved, this refers specifically to discarding the former. In doing so, we give up the latter as well.

Occasionally, a nineteenth root downfall is specified:

(19) Belittling others with sarcastic verses or words

This may be included, however, in the first bodhisattva root downfall.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... edges.html


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:10 pm 
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Chaz wrote:
And my guru received lineage transmissions from DKR as well, so maybe you should tell me, how is my teacher unqualified or somehow lacking in the basics? Would DKR empower such a student?

I never said your teacher was unqualified.

You're filled with hostility and lashing out at others, so I won't say anything more right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Dharmakara wrote:
or when someone is too thick headed to realize when they have come across something they can't handle (the latter), in this instance any challenge to the orthodoxy of Buddhist doctrine and belief.


Ah, so Batchelor supporters are stainless and pure on this thread?

One said good riddance to us all, I remember. ;)

I think the on-topic debate has been fine.

The personal remarks, however, have marred the debate. It would be good not to pour petrol on the flames. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Luke wrote:
Erm... perhaps we could all use a refresher course on the Bodhisattva Vows?

The Eighteen Bodhisattva Root Downfalls

(1) Praising ourselves and/or belittling others

This downfall refers to speaking such words to someone in an inferior position. The motivation must contain either desire for profit, praise, love, respect, and so on from the person addressed, or jealousy of the person belittled. It makes no difference whether what we say is true or false. Professionals who advertise that they are Buddhists need to take care about committing this downfall...

...(18) Giving up bodhichitta

This is abandoning the wish to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all. Of the two levels of bodhichitta, aspiring and involved, this refers specifically to discarding the former. In doing so, we give up the latter as well.

Occasionally, a nineteenth root downfall is specified:

(19) Belittling others with sarcastic verses or words

This may be included, however, in the first bodhisattva root downfall.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... edges.html



Thanks for that reminder, there, Luke. Always good to know when you're screwing up. I probably commited a root downfall or two within hours of taking my vows :(. The first bhumi is still a ways off, I guess. Luckily the Vows can always be renewed. I've thought of getting a written copy of the B-Vows from my guru and start reciting them as a part of my evening practice liturgy.

And to be VERY honest, I've considered starting to include our old friend Huseng in my Tonglen practice as well, but I haven't,.....yet. I guess there are limits to this Bodhisattva's compassion ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Chaz wrote:

Huseng isn't pointing out anything. He can't point out adharma because none has been presented to him in regards to my teacher.


This is what you posted:

viewtopic.php?p=23932#p23932

Quote:
That's not what I've been taught. Attachment and ignorance leads to suffering, not rebirth. That's what I've been taught.


The conclusion being is either your teacher doesn't understand even the most basic tenets of Buddhism, or you have misunderstood your teacher.

Quote:
I mere said that the teaching I recieved was not what he believes and he starts in on my teacher.


See above.

Quote:
He doesn't have a clue about what he's talking about AND he's being very insulting about it.


Now you must be joking right? I find it quite amusing that the people who don't believe in rebirth can cite nothing to back up their claims that their beliefs are Buddhist. You have no reference point. You cite people like Batchelor, but you don't cite primary sources for your arguments? That's laughable.

Quote:
Is your position official? Can I expect no satisfaction in this matter?


When you say position, are you asking if I'm a Buddhist who takes refuge in the triple gem (Buddha, Dharma, Sangha)? The answer is yes.

You want satisfaction from me? In regards to what? You can get satisfaction by taking the time to actually study genuine Buddhist texts. What other satisfaction are you looking for?

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    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Chaz wrote:
Huseng isn't pointing out anything. He can't point out adharma because none has been presented to him in regards to my teacher.


In fact it was. You said that you were taught that clinging and ignorance do not lead to rebirth. This is false.
However it might have easily been a poor expression on your part. Because clinging and ignorance indeed lead to suffering. This however does not mean they don't lead to rebirth.

My own teacher for example rarely mentions this. In fact I think I can remember only one time that he (probably) talked about it out of the numerous times he taught (since I started following him). However if you take a look into a base book he himself wrote, it's quite clear this is the case. So while he doesn't mention it (and other things), but he often says that everyone should try to study this book (too bad I don't listen to this advice much hehe). He doesn't explicitly teach many things because he expects/wants us to do a bit of work on our own.

Quote:
He doesn't have a clue about what he's talking about AND he's being very insulting about it.


Chaz, try to take a step back, a few breaths and have another look at the discussion. :consoling:

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:20 pm 
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Little extra on karma, rebirth and speech.

"Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds." (Vipaka Sutta)

Image

"Those who with body and mouth curse at people, after death fall into the Tongue Ripping Hell." (Karma of Good and Evil Sutra T85n2881_p1381c19) More: hell called Plowing Tongues.

For further contemplation: Subhasita Sutta

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Astus wrote:
The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds."


Oh so that's why I fart and burp so much... :rolling:

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Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:24 pm 
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Luke wrote:
Chaz wrote:
And my guru received lineage transmissions from DKR as well, so maybe you should tell me, how is my teacher unqualified or somehow lacking in the basics? Would DKR empower such a student?

I never said your teacher was unqualified.

You're filled with hostility and lashing out at others, so I won't say anything more right now.



You're right, I am being hostile and it is being misdirected. Although it wasn't my intention to treat you in that fashion, I do apologize.

The point I was hoping to make (and failed so miserably at). That my teacher's qualification are brought into question simply by virtue of my saying I hadn't been taught to Huseng's standard.

You posted that quote by DKR (one of my faves btw) and I was remined that DKR taught and empowered my guru as well as HHDL. Those kinds of connections to lineage masters are nothing to scoff at. So if Huseng is so sure of his appraisal of my teacher, then what was DKR missing with my guru?

I was hoping someone, you maybe, could shed a little light there.

But of course, I managed to screw that up in a most triumphant way. So, sorry about that .......


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Chaz wrote:
[ I probably commited a root downfall or two within hours of taking my vows :(. The first bhumi is still a ways off, I guess. Luckily the Vows can always be renewed.


Yeah, sure, that's a great way of looking at bodhisattva vows....anytime you break them, just renew them. :roll:

Chaz wrote:
That my teacher's qualification are brought into question simply by virtue of my saying I hadn't been taught to Huseng's standard.


As stated, the conclusion being is either your teacher doesn't understand even the most basic tenets of Buddhism, or you have misunderstood your teacher.

Huseng's standard by the way is the standard of the Buddha himself.

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    - Vasubandhu


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Pero wrote:
Chaz wrote:
Huseng isn't pointing out anything. He can't point out adharma because none has been presented to him in regards to my teacher.


In fact it was. You said that you were taught that clinging and ignorance do not lead to rebirth.


correction. in my text it leads to "birth". Now that may mean "rebirth" and it may not. The way the Nidannas were presented to me (by teachers authorized by my guru teaching from texts he prepared), they have a broader application than simply post-mortem rebirth. They are also (and more importantly I might add) applied to each moment - beginning with ignorance and leading to birth and death.

A belief in a literal post-mortem rebirth is fine, but hardly applicable to to here and now unless you suddenly find yourself dying. Otherwise, PMR is a future matter and until the moment of death and disolution arrives, it is nothing. So, it's hardly worth talking about.

That said I've been recieving teaching by our local bardo teacher, Doctor Death himself, Andrew Holecek (he's a dentist, thus the silly moniker). He and I share the same guru and he's been teaching the Bardos based on my gurus book on the subject - Mind Beyond Death. They're wonderful teachings and having been formally introduced to what will undoubtedly be the agent of my personal demise (cancer), they're very helpful teachings as well. If DPR has no problem with Andrew teaching us on the Bardo, then one has to say that DPR is adharmic regarding literal post-mortem rebirth. he just doesn;'t place the same level of importance on the matter as huseng does.

Now I would have been as happy as a clam to discuss what I was taught with Huseng (I don't think he's THAT unreasonable), but did he ask? No. He started in on my teacher not having a command of the basics. And that, gordo, I find insulting as hell. I have not presented any adharma, nor has my teacher and I resent the implication that he has. I don't care what the intention was.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:41 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
Yeah, sure, that's a great way of looking at bodhisattva vows....anytime you break them, just renew them. :roll:


Come on now Gordo-dono. :smile:

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- Shabkar


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