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Anatta = not Atman or No-Self - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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reflection
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby reflection » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:50 pm

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Virgo
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Virgo » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:37 am



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polarbear101
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:56 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:28 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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reflection
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby reflection » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:28 am

In a way he did even more directy. Every time he talked about the khandas, he was talking about anatta; those two are teaching the same thing. And he said, the khandas are impermanent and therefore suffering. He directly explains the link between those and what exactly is suffering. One only needs to make the step that there is nothing outside of the khandas and it all fits together beautifully. And to make sure we can't intellectually find a way out, the Buddha said "whatever form/../consciousness, near, far, subtle, gross etc is the aggregate of form/../consciousness".

Sure, some people still try to define some atman outside of the aggregates, either in a free will or in a sort of consciousness. But with my humble understanding, the Buddha included all their ideas by this statement as to be actually anatta & dukkha. And if we can let it all go, there'd be nothing to loose. This is how I understand the Buddha's teachings.

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:23 pm

Last edited by Lazy_eye on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby kirk5a » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:23 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:50 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby kirk5a » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:19 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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reflection
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby reflection » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:23 pm

The river Ganges has been called the river Ganges for a long time, and it will still be called that long after we die. Still, the water of the Ganges is never the same water. The path of the river is also changing all the time. Still we call it Ganges always, while in essence it is nothing. Nobody can point to the real 'self' of the Ganges.

Likewise, a person existed for a long time. But his actions are always different, influencing the path (s)he takes. Does there have to be a core to this? No, if you look closely at nature you see that everything is just processes without core. Clouds, trees, even the sun will one day cease to exist.

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:39 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:11 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby pegembara » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:12 pm

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:43 pm

I see a problem with this, though, which can be illustrated by comparing your scenario with a slightly different one.

Tom is a highly intelligent and cunning man who has hurt many people. He flies off to a foreign country and is never seen again. Another man, named Jack, happens to bear a close physical resemblance to Tom. He moves into the neighborhood where he encounters one of Tom's victims – who mistakes him for Tom and proceeds to attack him with a hammer.

Jack, dying from a lethal wound to the skull, has no idea why this person would want to hurt him. As far as he is concerned this stranger has an intense hatred for him for no apparent reason.

In both your scenario and mine, actions produce consequences. But only yours is "kamma-vipaka" according to Buddhism. Why? Because there is the assumption of an identity (self?) that links your (amnesiac) Tom and Jack.

If we remove this notion of identity, then consequences affecting a total amnesiac are no different from consequences affecting an entirely separate individual.

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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:52 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Alex123
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:34 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

pegembara
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby pegembara » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:34 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Alex123
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Alex123 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:58 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:11 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: Anatta = not Atman or No-Self

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:31 pm

Last edited by kirk5a on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230


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