Dharma protectors and samaya

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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Konchog1 » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:28 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:Speaking of Tsiu Marpo, a friend shared this story the other day:

"Living near Rinpoche and being a close disciple over the last 20 years I have been lucky enough to see some astounding things like the day the lord of the Tsen protectors [Tsiu Marpo] came to a Drupchen. This was in 1999.

We were practicing the Hayagriva sadhana on forest land in Indiana and one morning at breakfast Rinpoche (Traktung Khepa) said 'Today the Lord of the Tsen will be paying us a visit. He is the holder of this land, lord of these forests.' The Tsen are a male warrior spirit that live in the woodlands. They are always red. Those of us at breakfast were most intrigued. The sadhana began and Rinpoche was sitting with us under the large tent outdoors, maybe 30 or so people. He was sitting facing us in the front middle at a puja table.

Suddenly, in the middle of the protector prayers, from a stream about 100 yards away came walking slowly the largest deep red crayfish I have ever seen. It was huge, maybe 4 to 5 inches long with large pincers. The crayfish walked through the grass and directly in front of Rinpoche puja table where it raised up its pincers waving them in the air. The crayfish stayed for the duration of the entire sadhana, about 45 minutes and as the final prayers of dedication ended it simply walked back to the stream.

When the sadhana was over Rinpoche smiled and said 'He was marvelous wasn’t he!' All beings share in the interconnecting tendrels of wisdom and compassion. All beings long into and for the beauty, truth and goodness of Guru Rinpoche’s wisdom splendor."
I love stories like this.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Reibeam » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:04 pm

Caz wrote:How was it Tsui Marpo came to be associated with North America ?



"When Tibetans are scattered throughout the world, and horses run on iron wheels and when iron birds fly, the dharma will come to the land of the red man."

The association is often made with the indigenous the people of North America, but...........

maybe here: "red man" means the "tsen man" who are red. Its a far stretch and probably incorrect, but your question reminded me of the quote.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby tingdzin » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:23 pm

Dear Reibeam,

This quote (about horses on wheels and red men ) has been discussed both here (I think) and on the previous incarnation of this website. It is probably bogus. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to find a Tibetan source for it. If you know of one, please tell us.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby ngodrup » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:42 pm

Tibetans seem to know this saying. Although nobody seems to be able to cite a source.
It may very well be apocryphal, or maybe just a folk saying ...

That said, Reibeam proposes an interesting thought:
Since Tibetans were not generally very interested in technology...
What if the meaning is something like "the Dharma will go to the Nyen" ?
Some metaphors are not easy to unpack.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:23 pm

tingdzin wrote:Dear Reibeam,

This quote (about horses on wheels and red men ) has been discussed both here (I think) and on the previous incarnation of this website. It is probably bogus. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to find a Tibetan source for it. If you know of one, please tell us.



The most likely source for it is a prediction which shows up first in Loppon Sonam Tsemo's Chos la 'jug pa'i sgo byed:

    "The Vimalaprabhaparipṛcchā states that 2500 years after the parnirvana of the teacher, the sublime Dharma will spread in the land of the red faced ones.

There are three related texts which must be read to understand this more clearly, the Vimalaprabhaparipṛcchā-sūtra and the Arhatsaṃghavardhanavyākaraṇa and the Kaṃsadeśavyākaraṇa.

It seems that the notion of 2500 years is a mistake.

M
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Konchog1 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:43 pm

That's the problem with prophecy. What does red face mean? It's not red skin. Red face.

Black face means a person is angry, so red face could mean a country of lustful people. Or something else entirely.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Reibeam » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:44 pm

tingdzin wrote:Dear Reibeam,

This quote (about horses on wheels and red men ) has been discussed both here (I think) and on the previous incarnation of this website. It is probably bogus. To my knowledge, no one has ever been able to find a Tibetan source for it. If you know of one, please tell us.



I was not proposing that this supposed prophetic statement was some sort of fact. I only found its relationship with one of the groups of the eight classes and the location of their concentration of energy to be ironic. That being said..... Interesting correlations can be found everywhere when all phenomena, beings, and experiences are viewed as a symbols.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Jikan » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:13 pm

asunthatneversets wrote: one morning at breakfast Rinpoche (Traktung Khepa) said "[/i]


is the person called Rinpoche in the story named Traktung Khepa?

thanks
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:40 pm

Jikan wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote: one morning at breakfast Rinpoche (Traktung Khepa) said "[/i]


is the person called Rinpoche in the story named Traktung Khepa?

thanks

Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:18 am

asunthatneversets wrote:Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.

This one: http://www.traktungrinpoche.org/Traktung_Yeshe_Dorje/Home.html ?

Is he for real?

Re red faced men: http://earlytibet.com/2007/09/18/red-faced-men/
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:26 am

asunthatneversets wrote:Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.


No, per himself. His association with DTR was very subsequent to his proclamation of his own tulkuship. I have observed the development of Kirkpatrick's self-mythology for 20 years on the internet. The DTR relationship is rather late.

But this is off-topic, and if people choose to believe Kirkpatrick's claims about himself, that is their business and none of mine.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:35 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:30 am

Konchog1 wrote:That's the problem with prophecy. What does red face mean? It's not red skin. Red face.

Black face means a person is angry, so red face could mean a country of lustful people. Or something else entirely.


It very clearly means Tibetans; since they used to smear their faces with red pigment.

At any rate, for more than a thousand years educated Tibetans have understood the term གདོང་དམར་ཅན, "red faced" to refer to themselves. Why? Because the Kaṃsadeśavyākaraṇa explicitly refers to Tibetans as "the red-faced" ones.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.


No, per himself. His association with DTR was very subsequent to his proclamation of his own tulkuship. I have observed the development of Kirkpatrick's self-mythology for 20 years on the internet. The DTR relationship is rather late.

But this is off-topic, and if people choose to believe Kirkpatrick's claims about himself, that is their business and none of mine.

I take it you don't recommend him then?
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:46 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.


No, per himself. His association with DTR was very subsequent to his proclamation of his own tulkuship. I have observed the development of Kirkpatrick's self-mythology for more than 20 years on the internet. The DTR relationship is rather late.

Is he worth checking out? Who is he supposed to be the tulku of?


He proclaimed himself a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje. He and his wife originally appeared on the internet as "Khepa and Acala".

And one of the reasons Khepa has never had an interest in meeting with Tibetan teachers is because it‟s very important in terms of our work in this time and place that we not take on some of the unnecessary cultural trappings of Tibetan Buddhism. We‟re American Buddhists.
Khepa: We are American Tantric Buddhists. We are not Tibetan Tantric Buddhists. So there was a long period where I decided I did not want any contact with any other teachings. I wanted to teach purely what was given to me through Terma and through vision. Now it‟s been eight years, and our community is very well established. So now I‟m entering a completely different phase where I‟m actually quite interested in meeting and talking with Ngakpa Chogyam, who‟s Scottish, but he teaches a very traditional Tibetan line of Dharma transmission.

http://crazywisdom.net/assets/khepa-and ... erview.pdf

I have no idea if he is "worth checking out". He has a nice farm. His wife likes to write and record Buddhist devotional folk music. He pissed off a guy name Namkha Rinpoche who then went on to develop a large Sangha in Europe. They used to be associated with the Aro people. He eventually studied with Dungsey Thrinley Norbu. He claims to be a terton.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:48 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.


No, per himself. His association with DTR was very subsequent to his proclamation of his own tulkuship. I have observed the development of Kirkpatrick's self-mythology for 20 years on the internet. The DTR relationship is rather late.

But this is off-topic, and if people choose to believe Kirkpatrick's claims about himself, that is their business and none of mine.

I take it you don't recommend him then?


I recommend that when anyone decides to make a Dharma connection with someone, they take some time to investigate the person they wish to make a connection with.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:54 am

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:I take it you don't recommend him then?
I recommend that when anyone decides to make a Dharma connection with someone, they take some time to investigate the person they wish to make a connection with.

OK, thanks for the advice. I'm just curious about him, that's all.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:59 am

dzogchungpa wrote:I take it you don't recommend him then?

I too have heard of some controversy, but also have a friend who is a student of Traktung Khepa and is very much enjoying his experience with him so far... so I try to stay neutral.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Yeah, Traktung Khepa or Traktung Yeshe Dorje, from Michigan. He's considered to be a tulku of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje per Thinley Norbu Rinpoche.


No, per himself. His association with DTR was very subsequent to his proclamation of his own tulkuship. I have observed the development of Kirkpatrick's self-mythology for 20 years on the internet. The DTR relationship is rather late.

But this is off-topic, and if people choose to believe Kirkpatrick's claims about himself, that is their business and none of mine.

Appreciate the clarification!
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby orgyen jigmed » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:20 am

Malcom wrote:

North American is Tsiu Marpo. Ocean is Marutse.



So the name in the TUN book is just another name for Tsiu Marpo?


Malcom wrote:

Yes.


But when I have very recently posed the same question to CNN whether the Tsen Yava Rukshi, Tsiu Marpo and Jagpa Melen are the same deity with a different name, he simply said: "No, not the same even though they all belong to the same powerful class of Tsen..." he then continued: " see, I am not you and you are not me!"

It is worth noting that the Tsen Jagpa Melen is the main protector of the Drukpa Kagyu.
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Re: Dharma protectors and samaya

Postby heart » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:43 am

asunthatneversets wrote:Suddenly, in the middle of the protector prayers, from a stream about 100 yards away came walking slowly the largest deep red crayfish I have ever seen. It was huge, maybe 4 to 5 inches long with large pincers. The crayfish walked through the grass and directly in front of Rinpoche puja table where it raised up its pincers waving them in the air. The crayfish stayed for the duration of the entire sadhana, about 45 minutes and as the final prayers of dedication ended it simply walked back to the stream.


Just curious, but most crayfish in my neck of the wood are not red but rather dark brown until they are cooked, and I presume it was alive? Also, I understand crayfish can hold water in their gels (like we can hold air in our lungs) but isn't 45 minutes a very long time?

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