Our Actions in Samsara

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Our Actions in Samsara

Postby BluePiano » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:16 am

Okay, so from what I understand, samsara is illusory and this world doesn't really exists(is that a good word?). The "self" does not exist either but we all have a Buddha nature. What I would like to know, is when we meditate, perform prostrations, do rituals and so forth, what exactly is reaping the benefits of these exercises and why does it matter what we do in samsara if it's not real?

Does that makes any sense?
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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby ground » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:21 am

BluePiano wrote:Does that makes any sense?


No. If this all did not exists why do you bother in the first place?

To think in terms of "existence" and "non-existence" is ill-founded and only leads to proliferation and distraction.


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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby BluePiano » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:26 am

That is pretty much what I'm asking. I think I understand the concept of samsara incorrectly, which is why I'm trying to get some sort of clarification.
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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby ground » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:26 am

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby BluePiano » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:27 am

TMingyur wrote:
BluePiano wrote:Does that makes any sense?


No. If this all did not exists why do you bother in the first place?

To think in terms of "existence" and "non-existence" is ill-founded and only leads to proliferation and distraction.


Kind regards


So what should I think of it as?

Edit: Now that I've read your second reply, I think I have a better understanding. I have a tendency to think in extremes. Thank you for your help!
Last edited by BluePiano on Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:29 am

I like your avatar :smile:

See this thread:

What transmigrates?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby BluePiano » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:41 am

mr. gordo wrote:I like your avatar :smile:

See this thread:

What transmigrates?


Thank you! I say, it looks like our avatars are reaching out to each other!

Okay, that helps me get a grasp on the nature of reality. Dependent origin is an annoying subject for me, but that helped a lot!
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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby Indrajala » Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:44 am

BluePiano wrote:Okay, so from what I understand, samsara is illusory and this world doesn't really exists(is that a good word?). The "self" does not exist either but we all have a Buddha nature. What I would like to know, is when we meditate, perform prostrations, do rituals and so forth, what exactly is reaping the benefits of these exercises and why does it matter what we do in samsara if it's not real?

Does that makes any sense?


You should understand self as being that which would be independent and autonomous of causes and conditions. It would exist fundamentally uncaused and have an inherent essence to it.

However, no such thing can be found either in your person or in phenomena. This means that neither person nor thing can exist on its own. It has to exist dependent on causes and conditions. All things, including people, are dependent upon causes and conditions for their existence.

The problem here, however, is that we perceive our persons as being "self", "me" and "mine". We are under the mistaken perception that self as described above is what we are, though it really not exist.

Understand Buddha nature as the potential to become a Buddha. To understand what a Buddha is in the Mahayana context, you need to read a lot of literature.

Like in one text Buddha is referred to as "you who stand nowhere like infinite space". Buddha nature is the potential for Buddhahood. It is not a thing. It is a causal process.

What I would like to know, is when we meditate, perform prostrations, do rituals and so forth, what exactly is reaping the benefits of these exercises and why does it matter what we do in samsara if it's not real?


You do exist. You might be empty of inherent existence, but in ordinary and more experiential terms you do exist. This cannot be denied.

So there is a conditionally existent being that experiences reality and the fruits of actions. As there is action, so too is there an agent, but then that agent of the actions is likewise dependent upon a myriad of causes and conditions. Not absolute, but relative.

Samsara might ultimately be illusory, but until you eradicate the causes for it to continue, you will experience it.
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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby ground » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:21 am

Huseng wrote:This means that neither person nor thing can exist on its own. It has to exist dependent on causes and conditions. All things, including people, are dependent upon causes and conditions for their existence.
...
Samsara might ultimately be illusory, but until you eradicate the causes for it to continue, you will experience it.


And there is no samsara that would pertain to you and a samsara that would pertain to others. There is only samsara which is neither one nor many. Therefore the same holds true as to eradicating the causes. There are no causes that would pertain to you and causes that would pertain to others. There are just causes of samsara which is neither one nor many.
Here is where the crucial aspect of "self and others" comes in and why the path-mind necessarily has to cover the both, the dependently arisen "I" and the dependently arisen "others" because if it does the path is based on reality and if it does not the path is based on illusion and will not entail fruits.
So "Our Actions in Samsara" concern ourselves and others. What is wholesome for others is wholesome for ourselves and vv. And what is wholesome is meritorious, i.e. entails "merits" conducive to eradicating the causes of samsara.


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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby muni » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:13 pm

TMingyur wrote:
So "Our Actions in Samsara" concern ourselves and others. What is wholesome for others is wholesome for ourselves and vv.

Kind regards


Kind regards. :good:
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Re: Our Actions in Samsara

Postby LastLegend » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:47 pm

BluePiano wrote:Okay, so from what I understand, samsara is illusory and this world doesn't really exists(is that a good word?). The "self" does not exist either but we all have a Buddha nature. What I would like to know, is when we meditate, perform prostrations, do rituals and so forth, what exactly is reaping the benefits of these exercises and why does it matter what we do in samsara if it's not real?

Does that makes any sense?


It is not real but you still experience it since you are not yet detached from the cycle of death and rebirth. Like for example when you get hit, you would feel the pain. It is not real but you still experience. Another way to look at this through dream, dream is not real but you still experience in it. And if you never wake up from your dream, it is real to you.
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