Discussing About One's Guru Openly

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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Heruka » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:22 am

the buddha is your guru. :smile:

where is this internal conflict?
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby ground » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:51 am

Heruka wrote:the buddha is your guru. :smile:

where is this internal conflict?


Yes. He has set the standards. He is the measure for all other teachers ... at least for me.

Kind regards
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Luke » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:20 pm

Heruka wrote:the buddha is your guru. :smile:

where is this internal conflict?

Similarly, it is said that the true nature of one's mind is the secret guru.

However, people who practice Vajrayana require a living guru. And conflicts come about when we deal with ordinary life in order to do this and try to decide what is the best course of action is in different situations.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Ogyen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:03 am

I took refuge with Lama Dawa Rinpoche. I am seeking studentship with Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. As well as Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche, and Ogyen Trinley Dorje. These are the teachers I desire deep in my heart to learn from.

My actions positive and negative are always tied to those who share and exchange with me. I have no need to conceal my teachers as they are pillars of truth and source of strength for me, and if my words are poor enough to turn someone away, it is my karma. I cannot micromanage other people's minds or reactions to my words, I can however very clearly manage my own reactions and words. I use my best judgment to speak, and usually only when it benefits others in seeing that they can take hold of their own mind.

My intention is never to turn anyone away from dharma. I don't believe in making decisions out of fear. That i might mar my teacher's reputation is a decision that would made in fear (that I might hurt something being honest) that is not concrete now. What difference does it make if you know who taught me or not, if I am honest and wise or foolish and childish, it is not because of my teacher but because of what I've cultivated within me.

TMingyur's logic is based on a possibility, and certainly assumes one is incapable of being adult about their decisions. If you make a mistake, have the balls to stand behind it and make amends. If you damage your teacher's reputation, make amends.

I am not a bad person, I make mistakes, my teachers in my life have all known this, it's no news because I'm quite ordinary this way. No one expects me to be perfect. If anything, it's called practice because it's just that. Practicing being a Buddha. They know I will stumble. I do too. They know I will fall. I do too. They don't say, "Don't make me look bad to your friends" lol

So I completely disagree with the premise, but I can understand how different people hold different truths within themselves. Don't think of it as hurting your teacher, think of it as if you're an @$$ can you stand behind your mistake and say, yes, I screwed up and now I will fix it. That's I think the real lesson there. Some may not feel comfortable divulging their teachers and they'd be fully valid and right to feel the way they do BECAUSE they do. If you don't feel comfortable don't do it. After all, you are the manager of truth in your head. No one else.

I have nothing to hide, my life is an open book, you can know who my teachers are and even tell them I'm a bad student, it doesn't matter a wit in terms of what I understand or don't understand. My realization happens when I'm ready and not a breath sooner. I just do my best, and always remember you do too.

:heart:
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby ground » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:31 am

Ngawang Drolma wrote:When others write things that seem off-base to me, I would never assume it's necessarily the responsibility of the spiritual friend. So I may be a little self-conscious in my behavior.

But it is based on the concern for others with reference to what you yourself do and say after having revealed your guru! You cannot know the mind of others and the unconscious imprints your conduct may have on witnesses in the context of having revealed your guru to them.


Ogyen wrote:TMingyur's logic is based on a possibility, and certainly assumes one is incapable of being adult about their decisions. If you make a mistake, have the balls to stand behind it and make amends. If you damage your teacher's reputation, make amends.


Sorry but you completely misunderstood what I have written. What I have written referred to three possibilities:
1. One's own misconduct which is possible as long as one is not enlightened. Here it is to be considered that there is no inherently existing misconduct but a misconduct in this context is the misconduct others may perceive (deludedly or not). Putting the term "misconduct" aside actually the display of certain qualities that are averted by others due to their individual dispositions may be sufficient.
2. The possible misunderstanding of others with reference to one's own misconduct (or displayed qualities) after having publicly revealed one's guru which also is possible as long as those others are not entlightened. This misunderstanding isn't necessarily a conscious one.
3. The avoidance of the same guru by others due to their misunderstanding and the possible disadvantage this may have regarding their own benefit.

That is why I have written:
I would like to advise to never reveal one's teacher publicly. Why? Own wrongdoing that becomes known or every nonsensical talk one is unable to refrain from may cast a cloud over the teacher in the eyes of others. The teacher may be an arya who may benefit others, oneself may be only ordinary.



Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Tilopa » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:51 am

Ogyen wrote:I took refuge with Lama Dawa Rinpoche. I am seeking studentship with Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. As well as Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche, and Ogyen Trinley Dorje. These are the teachers I desire deep in my heart to learn from.

My actions positive and negative are always tied to those who share and exchange with me. I have no need to conceal my teachers as they are pillars of truth and source of strength for me, and if my words are poor enough to turn someone away, it is my karma. I cannot micromanage other people's minds or reactions to my words, I can however very clearly manage my own reactions and words. I use my best judgment to speak, and usually only when it benefits others in seeing that they can take hold of their own mind.

My intention is never to turn anyone away from dharma. I don't believe in making decisions out of fear. That i might mar my teacher's reputation is a decision that would made in fear (that I might hurt something being honest) that is not concrete now. What difference does it make if you know who taught me or not, if I am honest and wise or foolish and childish, it is not because of my teacher but because of what I've cultivated within me.

TMingyur's logic is based on a possibility, and certainly assumes one is incapable of being adult about their decisions. If you make a mistake, have the balls to stand behind it and make amends. If you damage your teacher's reputation, make amends.

I am not a bad person, I make mistakes, my teachers in my life have all known this, it's no news because I'm quite ordinary this way. No one expects me to be perfect. If anything, it's called practice because it's just that. Practicing being a Buddha. They know I will stumble. I do too. They know I will fall. I do too. They don't say, "Don't make me look bad to your friends" lol

So I completely disagree with the premise, but I can understand how different people hold different truths within themselves. Don't think of it as hurting your teacher, think of it as if you're an @$$ can you stand behind your mistake and say, yes, I screwed up and now I will fix it. That's I think the real lesson there. Some may not feel comfortable divulging their teachers and they'd be fully valid and right to feel the way they do BECAUSE they do. If you don't feel comfortable don't do it. After all, you are the manager of truth in your head. No one else.

I have nothing to hide, my life is an open book, you can know who my teachers are and even tell them I'm a bad student, it doesn't matter a wit in terms of what I understand or don't understand. My realization happens when I'm ready and not a breath sooner. I just do my best, and always remember you do too.

:heart:
D. Ogyen


Beautiful and honest. Thanks. :thumbsup:
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Luke » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:05 pm

Ogyen wrote:I took refuge with Lama Dawa Rinpoche.

Is he that awesome Nyingma ngakpa lama who does the mirror divinations? If so, then that's very cool that you took refuge with him. I've never met him, but I think he's fantastic.

Ogyen wrote:I have nothing to hide, my life is an open book, you can know who my teachers are and even tell them I'm a bad student, it doesn't matter a wit in terms of what I understand or don't understand.

That sounds poetic, but I think in reality, we each have many things to hide. For example, I don't think you would want to post your credit number or your home address on a public forum (and please don't interpret this as a challenge--I most certainly don't want you to put yourself at risk!). Or on a less serious note, when I have gas, I don't announce it to my students and am just grateful that they are loud sometimes.... So there are even many ordinary things which regular people won't discuss openly.

We each set the boundaries of our privacy differently. I guess I view things more in terms of general internet privacy issues than in spiritual terms, since if you and I were talking face-to-face, I would tell you about my Guru in a heartbeat.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Dhondrub » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:20 pm

Here you find some teachings on how to find a Guru and be a good student by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche.

http://www.siddharthasintent.org/gentle ... v-2007.pdf


p.s.: D.Ogyen beautiful post and very good list of real deal teachers
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:06 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Ngawang Drolma wrote:When others write things that seem off-base to me, I would never assume it's necessarily the responsibility of the spiritual friend. So I may be a little self-conscious in my behavior.


But it is based on the concern for others with reference to what you yourself do and say after having revealed your guru! You cannot know the mind of others and the unconscious imprints your conduct may have on witnesses in the context of having revealed your guru to them.


Kind regards


Yes this is true :)
Where would I be without concern for other practitioners or my guru? Probably in a little bubble!

Best,
Laura
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Blue Garuda » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:41 pm

Aspects of my practice are secret and will always remain so, and there are vows about what may be revealed to people defined as suitable, for example those who are dharma brothers and sisters who shared the same empowerment as me with a particular root guru.

So it is simply not possible for me to be like Ogyen.

I would reveal other details of my guru, his teachings and our practices if I thought it to be beneficial. On that basis, if I don't think it to be beneficial, I wouldn't do so on the web.

We must also avoid boasting about our guru in idle gossip, as this would be inappropriate attachment.

As has already been posted, we should also be mindful of the effects of our karma on others as well as ourselves.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Ogyen » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:55 pm

I realize I may have been rather unclear, and I apologize. :namaste:

I have nothing to hide that I would lie about. To be precise. That is if confronted with a truth by someone in a way I wouldn't normally disclose, I've never felt afraid of standing behind my actions, poor or proper as they may be, they are my own and my ongoing "life lessons" so to speak. That is what I meant. In that sense I have nothing to hide. If you can find it about me, I can answer it, more than likely. Whether or not I choose to disclose is my business just like yours is your own. I would say that is implicit.

Your basic ethic will show through your words and actions, there is no way to really interact and not exchange that means you become visible to each other. Stick around long enough in any forum, you get to know your peers by how they think and write. But most importantly, they get to know you. And they show you who you are through your reactions to what you encounter in the exchanges.

The reason I wouldn't not disclose a guru is simply because if it's easily accessible information, I think it'd be kind of public. Odds are your sangha is trying to have a website, trying to be visible without soliciting from people. But the whole point of online attention for sanghas is two fold, making teachings accessible, and assisting the organization with its sustenance from people's help.

Isn't that the whole point of this internet connecting with other folks far away in body, but right here in stride online. It's one the crazy wonders of technology. And of course, such freedom carries risk. Nothing good was ever easy. But the benefits for someone like myself have been tremendous.

I realize that it's not perfect, it's what we got. I guess for myself what many others feel, is that the relative risk is worth (at least still is, who knows for how much longer - carpe diem) the benefits of connecting with other like-minded or unlike-minded folks globally is worth the potential for "breach of privacy"... a bank account can be changed, an identity reclaimed. It's a pain in the butt, I agree, but people tend to reveal to whom they trust, if they mean well. If they don't and you don't know and shared some information in good faith and someone uses it poorly, it's like any other accident in life, you used the best judgment you had for your action. If you realize the action was incorrect, you try to adjust how you do the action. Meaning you have to stop and reflect on where it was you lost track of the part that steered your judgment poorly in that situation. If applicable. Depending on the circumstances, there are many realities, and all of them true, contradictory as they may seem, no?

Sadly, it is actually rather easy for some individuals to find out where anyone lives, what their credit card number is, and we know that there are people very crooked in their views and rather ignorant about the consequences that result from such actions. Use the best common sense you have, if not research online common sense on google and go at it.

Dhondrub thank you for the kind words, I also think these are strong teachers. Yeshe I do agree with you there are matters of privacy because quite plainly some people just mean ill to others and to continue to live in a way that is conducive to growth one must absolutely take basic care of those pillars of daily stability.

Also, if I had samaya, I would absolutely uphold this, and would not be and open book. That is perfectly sensible in this regard. One must always prioritize what is most beneficial to the current situation and its constituents. I don't know if that's Buddhist, but it's human. And practical compassion is what makes the world a better place. That doesn't mean throw caution to the wind. It means the four noble truths and the eightfold path, human beware what is sweet also carries bitter. :crying:

There are I think many lessons in those two bits right there, right? Was it the Buddha who said the heart of awakening is in those practices alone. Or was it that you could fully realize your potential even just practicing taking refuge alone. Beautiful. Shows how simple truth really is in its "prime numbers" or indivisible components. :namaste:

Just a few thoughts, thanks for inspiring them!

:heart:
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:51 pm

Yeshe wrote:Aspects of my practice are secret and will always remain so, and there are vows about what may be revealed to people defined as suitable, for example those who are dharma brothers and sisters who shared the same empowerment as me with a particular root guru.

So it is simply not possible for me to be like Ogyen.

I would reveal other details of my guru, his teachings and our practices if I thought it to be beneficial. On that basis, if I don't think it to be beneficial, I wouldn't do so on the web.

We must also avoid boasting about our guru in idle gossip, as this would be inappropriate attachment.

As has already been posted, we should also be mindful of the effects of our karma on others as well as ourselves.

:namaste: :namaste:
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby nirmal » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:48 pm

Ogyen wrote:I took refuge with Lama Dawa Rinpoche. I am seeking studentship with Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. As well as Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche, and Ogyen Trinley Dorje. These are the teachers I desire deep in my heart to learn from.

My actions positive and negative are always tied to those who share and exchange with me. I have no need to conceal my teachers as they are pillars of truth and source of strength for me, and if my words are poor enough to turn someone away, it is my karma. I cannot micromanage other people's minds or reactions to my words, I can however very clearly manage my own reactions and words. I use my best judgment to speak, and usually only when it benefits others in seeing that they can take hold of their own mind.

My intention is never to turn anyone away from dharma. I don't believe in making decisions out of fear. That i might mar my teacher's reputation is a decision that would made in fear (that I might hurt something being honest) that is not concrete now. What difference does it make if you know who taught me or not, if I am honest and wise or foolish and childish, it is not because of my teacher but because of what I've cultivated within me.

TMingyur's logic is based on a possibility, and certainly assumes one is incapable of being adult about their decisions. If you make a mistake, have the balls to stand behind it and make amends. If you damage your teacher's reputation, make amends.

I am not a bad person, I make mistakes, my teachers in my life have all known this, it's no news because I'm quite ordinary this way. No one expects me to be perfect. If anything, it's called practice because it's just that. Practicing being a Buddha. They know I will stumble. I do too. They know I will fall. I do too. They don't say, "Don't make me look bad to your friends" lol

So I completely disagree with the premise, but I can understand how different people hold different truths within themselves. Don't think of it as hurting your teacher, think of it as if you're an @$$ can you stand behind your mistake and say, yes, I screwed up and now I will fix it. That's I think the real lesson there. Some may not feel comfortable divulging their teachers and they'd be fully valid and right to feel the way they do BECAUSE they do. If you don't feel comfortable don't do it. After all, you are the manager of truth in your head. No one else.

I have nothing to hide, my life is an open book, you can know who my teachers are and even tell them I'm a bad student, it doesn't matter a wit in terms of what I understand or don't understand. My realization happens when I'm ready and not a breath sooner. I just do my best, and always remember you do too.

:heart:
D. Ogyen


Exactly
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Serve your Guru well and open your heart to him with great diligence.May he, by the wink of an eye or a pointing of a finger, point out the entity of enlightenment to you.

All texts,rituals, ect. are just playwords.They are not the real methods to get the entity of enlightenment.
May you get Enlightenment before me.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby muni » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:04 am

As long as I know, getting Rock and Roll from Elvis Presley himself is not like recognizing a Guru-teacher-spiritual friend pointing to my delusions. Then all okay.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Luke » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:54 am

Ogyen wrote:Isn't that the whole point of this internet connecting with other folks far away in body, but right here in stride online.

I guess I see things in more impersonal terms. The reason I joined Buddhist forums was to obtain more information about Buddhism and to discuss Buddhism (for example, two people can discuss the Diamond Sutra in a meaningful way without knowing a thing about each other). Only later on, did I realize that I actually liked getting to know some of the members.

One result of my Ngondro practice so far is that I'm beginning to see clearly that I'm not a very nice person at all and that my bodhichitta is weak and unstable. Hopefully, I'll fix these things as I progress.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby muni » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:42 pm

[quote="Luke"]
One result of my Ngondro practice so far is that I'm beginning to see clearly that I'm not a very nice person at all and that my bodhichitta is weak and unstable. quote]


Then great blossoming Bodhichitta! I foolish dove in a fabricated algebra dharma downfall, so can only rejoice from the core of being to read this inspiration.

:bow:
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby ngodrup » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:56 pm

My precious Lama advises us to beware of Dharma Politics and not speak
of specifics except with those following similar paths. Beyond that, he's
not superstitious, Therefore, I don't mind people knowing I'm Nyingma--
even though I participate with other orders in a rime spirit. Nyingma
friends know which lineage I mainly practice. Knowing that, it's an easy
guess what the yidam is. :) Lastly, because having a relationship of
mutual trust with a vajra master is critical to having anything to say at all,
I don't mind telling individuals privately, and in person, who my root lama is.
Again not publicly, but privately.
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Re: Discussing About One's Guru Openly

Postby Pema Dorje » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:23 am

I have no problems sharing my Guru's with DW.

They are Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche and Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche, 2 brothers whom are great teachers, and just recently the older brother Khenchen Rinpoche passed away.

We are very lucky to have such beautiful teachers. :anjali:
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