A closer look into empowerments

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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Karma Jinpa » Wed May 14, 2014 3:52 pm

pensum wrote:Note that there is also simply making a connection (pa'i dbang gis), such as when a lama touches a text or statue to one's crown, sometimes they will do this when giving a particular student permission to read and study that particular text before the student has had the opportunity to receive the empowerment or reading transmission.

I'd like to hear more specifics about the form and function of a pay wang gi, if at all possible. Before these discussions about empowerments, I only knew of the generic expression "wang" and the specific terms wangkur and jenang. Is this "connection" what most people are referring to when they speak of a "provisional empowerment," or is that something else?

Since texts and statues are representations of body and speech, respectively, could anything consecrated/blessed/designated by one's lama serve as the basis for a pay wang gi until such time as the appropriate level of empowerment can be obtained? H.H. Jigdral Dagchen Sakya has consecrated recorded DVDs which contain compressed spreadsheets of mantras for use in prayer wheels... so could that have implications as well?

:coffee:
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།


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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby ngodrup » Wed May 14, 2014 4:40 pm

I received a "Potri wang" one time in which the Lama used
a computer hard drive.
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby pensum » Thu May 15, 2014 1:37 pm

ngodrup wrote:I received a "Potri wang" one time in which the Lama used
a computer hard drive.


Ah, we forgot to mention this type earlier, so perhaps Malcolm will be so kind as to explain exactly what a guidance manual empowerment (pod khrid dbang) is and its purpose.
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 15, 2014 3:13 pm

pensum wrote:
ngodrup wrote:I received a "Potri wang" one time in which the Lama used
a computer hard drive.


Ah, we forgot to mention this type earlier, so perhaps Malcolm will be so kind as to explain exactly what a guidance manual empowerment (pod khrid dbang) is and its purpose.


A poti lung dbang is part of a larger empowerment used to grant permission to read and transmit a text (usually the root text of the cycle) without having to go to the effort of actually doing so. In this case then, some Lamas like KDL would recite the empowerment mantras from the extended seven line prayer, for example, and give an abhisheka for a text in this way, in a very condensed way, he would call this the dpe dbang. He actually did this for whole collections of texts such as the Rinchen Terdzod and so on.
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby pemachophel » Thu May 15, 2014 3:54 pm

Is poti lung wang something like ka-tad? Malcolm, can you explain ka-tad in terms of lung, ti, and wang?

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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 15, 2014 4:00 pm

pemachophel wrote:Is poti lung wang something like ka-tad? Malcolm, can you explain ka-tad in terms of lung, ti, and wang?

:namaste:



Its the same.
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu May 15, 2014 4:14 pm

ngodrup wrote:I received a "Potri wang" one time in which the Lama used
a computer hard drive.


:twothumbsup:


Yudron (who no longer posts here, but might read here) kindly interpreted that The Sang Yum of Dudjom Rinpoche gave this form of transmission, the "poti wang" in this thread:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=12122&start=60#p158601

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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby dakini_boi » Thu May 15, 2014 5:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:. . . some Lamas like KDL would recite the empowerment mantras from the extended seven line prayer, for example. . .


What is the "extended seven line prayer"?
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 15, 2014 5:56 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
Malcolm wrote:. . . some Lamas like KDL would recite the empowerment mantras from the extended seven line prayer, for example. . .


What is the "extended seven line prayer"?


It is the on that has the request for the four empowerments amended to it.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Karma Jinpa » Thu May 15, 2014 7:42 pm

pensum wrote:Note that there is also simply making a connection (pa'i dbang gis), such as when a lama touches a text or statue to one's crown, sometimes they will do this when giving a particular student permission to read and study that particular text before the student has had the opportunity to receive the empowerment or reading transmission.

Can nothing more be said regarding the context and features of a pa'i dbang gis?

Would making such a connection only allow reading and studying the text, but not include ritual permission to practice it? Or would you be enabled to perform the sadhana by invoking the jnanasattva but not the samayasattva (i.e. enacting it with front visualization but without self-visualization)?

Can any of the types of empowerments we've discussed so far be said to be provisional, and therefore require followup (other than to receive the reading transmission if it's not included during the ritual)? In general, are there any particular reasons for a lama to bestow a jenang or jinlab rather than a wangkur (other than due to time and supports/substances available)?
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།


:namaste:
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby heart » Thu May 15, 2014 8:05 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:
pensum wrote:Note that there is also simply making a connection (pa'i dbang gis), such as when a lama touches a text or statue to one's crown, sometimes they will do this when giving a particular student permission to read and study that particular text before the student has had the opportunity to receive the empowerment or reading transmission.

Can nothing more be said regarding the context and features of a pa'i dbang gis?

Would making such a connection only allow reading and studying the text, but not include ritual permission to practice it? Or would you be enabled to perform the sadhana by invoking the jnanasattva but not the samayasattva (i.e. enacting it with front visualization but without self-visualization)??


I received this recently, Rinpoche told me I was allowed read and study the teachings, nothing else.

/magnus
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby amanitamusc » Thu May 15, 2014 8:58 pm

Does anyone remember, Did KDL give the Potri Wang in Bristol,VT. The winter of 02&03
at the Nyingtig Yabbshi teachings .There was a whole pile of texts even a hard drive ?
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Alex Hubbard » Tue May 27, 2014 7:24 am

pensum wrote:What i find interesting here is that the empowerment manuals were composed later, though the Desum had been passed on several times prior to Kyungtrul's first attempt at composing a manual based on how Samten Gyatso gave him the empowerments. Then not being able to figure out Kyungtrul's arrangement, the 2nd Neten Chokling gave the empowerments to Dzongsar Khyentse, Katok Situ and Shechen Rabjam without the use of any manual. All of which leads me to wonder in what manner were the empowerments given? Did Neten, Samten Gyatso and the earlier lineage masters just improvise as they went based on the basic traditional formula used for the four empowerments, providing their own explanations of the included teachings? From TUR's account we can surmise that the basic arrangement and procedures of these pre-text empowerments did conform to that found in the manuals as in both of the early cases the manuals were written based on how the empowerments were given to the author. And we know that they didn't just do anything simple as it took days or weeks to give them all, so what did it really entail in these cases and how did they actually go about giving the empowerments?


I find this really interesting as well. I'm thinking about the role of these kinds of additions and wondering why they're necessary in the first place, does anyone know? Is an 'empowerment manual' a guide for the officiating Lama to giving the empowerments? Is there then something missing from the gtérma such that a manual is needed and does the manual make the empowerments more elaborate than they otherwise would be? In that sense does the gtérma contain something more bare bones which is then slotted into an existing protocol for the giving of empowerments?

Lots of questions there!

Thanks,
Alex.
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby narraboth » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, since Shangpa transmissions exist in other schools than Kagyu. Then there is the fact that they all, for the most part, pass through another Nyingmapa, Thangthon Gyalpo.

Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing Shangpa, it is just that gtor ma empowerments do not exist in the New Tantras at all.


I remember there's a torma based mother tantra dbang of chod, black troma, said to be from Padempa Sangye lineage, in collection of sadhana. (for its length it looks like a jin rlab, but I think the name is dbang) Don't know if it has any link to Nyingma tradition.
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby narraboth » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:26 pm

Alex Hubbard wrote:
pensum wrote:What i find interesting here is that the empowerment manuals were composed later, though the Desum had been passed on several times prior to Kyungtrul's first attempt at composing a manual based on how Samten Gyatso gave him the empowerments. Then not being able to figure out Kyungtrul's arrangement, the 2nd Neten Chokling gave the empowerments to Dzongsar Khyentse, Katok Situ and Shechen Rabjam without the use of any manual. All of which leads me to wonder in what manner were the empowerments given? Did Neten, Samten Gyatso and the earlier lineage masters just improvise as they went based on the basic traditional formula used for the four empowerments, providing their own explanations of the included teachings? From TUR's account we can surmise that the basic arrangement and procedures of these pre-text empowerments did conform to that found in the manuals as in both of the early cases the manuals were written based on how the empowerments were given to the author. And we know that they didn't just do anything simple as it took days or weeks to give them all, so what did it really entail in these cases and how did they actually go about giving the empowerments?


I find this really interesting as well. I'm thinking about the role of these kinds of additions and wondering why they're necessary in the first place, does anyone know? Is an 'empowerment manual' a guide for the officiating Lama to giving the empowerments? Is there then something missing from the gtérma such that a manual is needed and does the manual make the empowerments more elaborate than they otherwise would be? In that sense does the gtérma contain something more bare bones which is then slotted into an existing protocol for the giving of empowerments?

Lots of questions there!

Thanks,
Alex.


gter ma is usually pretty short and concised on itself. The author (Yeshe Tsogyal etc) assumed that the person know what to do. There's not really existing protocol, but there is things in tradition and in theory have to be done. Usually they will be indicated like 'here the teacher do A and B and then C'. Teacher either has to find the ritual of A, B and C from some other texts or write a new ritual for it. A readily written empowerment mannual helps the teacher work more easily, so that he doesn't need to have six different texts laying on table and to jump from this page of text A to another page of text B. Of course, if it's written by a great master, it would clarify some difficult points in the gterma text and give wonderful insights as well.
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby narraboth » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:45 pm

conebeckham wrote:I'm not Malcolm, but I will hazard a relatively uninformed guess.

I think torma as representation of deity is more of a Tibetan thing--torma offerings (Baling---or "cake offering") are found in Indian texts, of course, but I'm not sure if "tentors" are found there. Hopefully Malcolm can reply.

But in general "TorWangs" are actually JeNangs, and Jenangs can stand alone, as shorter rituals. (As Malcolm alluded to earlier, many/most full "Wangkurs" also have Jenangs at the end...they're often included as a discrete part of the full Wangkur). Anyway, It's a lot easier to make a torma, even an elaborate one, than it is to make a Sand Mandala, or a painted mandala. So, for a short "empowerment" (A Jenang, usually, or Jinlab) a torma as deity representation makes sense.


mmmm, I think we need to be a bit careful here.
In length, gtor dbang can be as short or even shorter than jenang or byin rlab.... but I haven't heard that in Nyingma people said you should receive a dbang chen before you receive gtor dbang. Many gterma cycle in rinchen gterdzo doesn't even have a dbang chen ritual. I think the general saying in Nyingma is that, it's better to have a more complete empowerment, but it is sufficient if you only have a gtor dbang. (There are special cases though. Longchen Nyingthig Dechen Gyalmo is not in this case. It can be compare with byin rlab. According to the text you need to receive proper dbang before hand, ideally the two days dbang chen in the Nyingthing cycle: Pachen dupa or Zitro.)
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:46 pm

narraboth wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, since Shangpa transmissions exist in other schools than Kagyu. Then there is the fact that they all, for the most part, pass through another Nyingmapa, Thangthon Gyalpo.

Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing Shangpa, it is just that gtor ma empowerments do not exist in the New Tantras at all.


I remember there's a torma based mother tantra dbang of chod, black troma, said to be from Padempa Sangye lineage, in collection of sadhana. (for its length it looks like a jin rlab, but I think the name is dbang) Don't know if it has any link to Nyingma tradition.



The collection of sadhanas contains both gsar ma and rnying ma transmissions, weighted heavily towards the former, however.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby narraboth » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
narraboth wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, since Shangpa transmissions exist in other schools than Kagyu. Then there is the fact that they all, for the most part, pass through another Nyingmapa, Thangthon Gyalpo.

Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing Shangpa, it is just that gtor ma empowerments do not exist in the New Tantras at all.


I remember there's a torma based mother tantra dbang of chod, black troma, said to be from Padempa Sangye lineage, in collection of sadhana. (for its length it looks like a jin rlab, but I think the name is dbang) Don't know if it has any link to Nyingma tradition.



The collection of sadhanas contains both gsar ma and rnying ma transmissions, weighted heavily towards the former, however.


Yes, but that specific ritual claims that the lineage is from Padampa Sangye, and no Nyingma master was mentioned (at least from what I remember).
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Re: A closer look into empowerments

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:37 pm

narraboth wrote:
Yes, but that specific ritual claims that the lineage is from Padampa Sangye, and no Nyingma master was mentioned (at least from what I remember).


Indeed, however, the system of gtor ma empowerments does not exist in the new tantras at all.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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