The Torch of Certainty

The Torch of Certainty

Postby LordCope » Sun May 11, 2014 9:01 am

I've been reading The Torch of Certainty. I guess it's my first exposure to Kagyu teaching that isn't 21st century friendly and bite-sized (e.g. some of the accessible Akong Rinpoche or Ringu Tulku stuff). I've found it to be a curious experience. In some ways it reminds me of some of the writings of the more zealous late 19th century protestant Christian writers - urging fierce devotion. Fierce devotion is, of course, a great thing, but it's interesting to see it in a Buddhist text:

"Since absolutely nothing in your daily experience transcends impermanence, at some time it is bound to affect you also. So right now, while there is still time, think: `I really must practice Dharma strenuously!`"


"Think: `Right now, since death is at my door, I must forget about things like food, money, clothing and fame. There is no time to spare!` and fit yourself, body, speech and mind into the path of the Dharma."


"From this day on, meditate repeatedly on the thought, `I must exert myself exclusively in the practice of religion! I must accomplish life's objective!`"


I'm somewhat familiar with the four thoughts... in that they appear as 'the preliminaries' in the 7 points of mind training, so it's good to have some more context on it.

What I am finding a bit trickier is some of the cosmology: hell beings, Gods of the desire realm, 8 cold hells, death daemons etc. To me this feels like a product of its time, a reflection of its culture... but I don't want to prejudge. As 21st century practitioners, do you take this stuff with a pinch of salt? Do you view it allegorically? Similarly the exortations on inappropriate sex (oral / anal).

Thoughts? Experiences?
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Andrew108 » Sun May 11, 2014 9:18 am

I take the 4 thoughts very seriously. I would say they are the foundation of my practice. The more you unpack them in your own experience, the more interesting they become. The cosmology I'm not interested in at all. Although there are many here on this forum that do believe in it. I would say that really it is up to you. If it is not meaningful for you then what can you do? Better to not contrive a faith out of fear of exclusion.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby tobes » Sun May 11, 2014 9:42 am

Is there not a discussion in that very text about the utility of the Mt Meru cosmology? Trungpa seems to (tentatively) suggest that it's time for a cosmology update....

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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby LordCope » Sun May 11, 2014 10:15 am

Andrew108 wrote:I take the 4 thoughts very seriously. I would say they are the foundation of my practice.


Yep - for me lojong and tonglen are the heart of Buddhism:

"Lojong contains, in a condensed form, the essence of all Buddhist thought." (Ringu Tulku, Mind Training)


In that slogan 1 is "First, train in the preliminaries" - I agree with you - the 4 thoughts are the very foundation.


The cosmology I'm not interested in at all. Although there are many here on this forum that do believe in it. I would say that really it is up to you. If it is not meaningful for you then what can you do? Better to not contrive a faith out of fear of exclusion.


Yeah - I'm just very new to all this, and one of the purposes of joining the forum was to get a chance to ask what other people think, have experienced, how, and why, so I'm not on my own :) I've not given it deep thought yet, but my current instinct is that our western preoccupation with logic and reason, and our view that it's impossible for there to be any realms other than those we currently experience sounds just like the kind of samsaric arrogance we'd expect to produce. That said, I'm not sure of its direct relevance to me - I care about suffering, I want to alleviate it for myself and all beings, regardless of whether they're in lower realms or not. I don't have an issue with "The Vajra Words of Praise to the Sublime Chenrezi", which mentions craving spirits and birth in the hells, but I don't think I necessarily need to take it literally... (whatever that really means!)
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Simon E. » Sun May 11, 2014 3:09 pm

LordCope wrote:I've been reading The Torch of Certainty. I guess it's my first exposure to Kagyu teaching that isn't 21st century friendly and bite-sized (e.g. some of the accessible Akong Rinpoche or Ringu Tulku stuff). I've found it to be a curious experience. In some ways it reminds me of some of the writings of the more zealous late 19th century protestant Christian writers - urging fierce devotion. Fierce devotion is, of course, a great thing, but it's interesting to see it in a Buddhist text:

"Since absolutely nothing in your daily experience transcends impermanence, at some time it is bound to affect you also. So right now, while there is still time, think: `I really must practice Dharma strenuously!`"


"Think: `Right now, since death is at my door, I must forget about things like food, money, clothing and fame. There is no time to spare!` and fit yourself, body, speech and mind into the path of the Dharma."




"From this day on, meditate repeatedly on the thought, `I must exert myself exclusively in the practice of religion! I must accomplish life's objective!`"


I'm somewhat familiar with the four thoughts... in that they appear as 'the preliminaries' in the 7 points of mind training, so it's good to have some more context on it.

What I am finding a bit trickier is some of the cosmology: hell beings, Gods of the desire realm, 8 cold hells, death daemons etc. To me this feels like a product of its time, a reflection of its culture... but I don't want to prejudge. As 21st century practitioners, do you take this stuff with a pinch of salt? Do you view it allegorically? Similarly the exortations on inappropriate sex (oral / anal).

Thoughts? Experiences?

As far as cosmology is concerned read " Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism " for an alternative Kagyu take...
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun May 11, 2014 3:18 pm

LordCope wrote:As 21st century practitioners, do you take this stuff with a pinch of salt? Do you view it allegorically? Similarly the exortations on inappropriate sex (oral / anal).


As to the oral/anal debate, I remember that a Buddhist nun once told me there are some Tibetologists who claim that the passages which forbid oral and anal intercourse are later additions and therefore not authentic. Unfortunately I have forgotten the name(s) of the Tibetologists who make that claim. Maybe somebody else knows? But anyway, it takes no crystal ball to see there's a lively debate ahead of us in the very near future :smile:

As to the different realms, I can live with both interpretations. There are certainly the six mental poisons present in each and every one of us, and there are certainly people who experience hellish states on this very earth, as well as others experiencing extreme hunger or thirst, and yet others living in godly realms.

If you take the Buddhist claim serious that the world we live in is not separate from our minds, then you will also have to accept that minds which are extremely governed by one of the mental poisons, for instance hatred, will also produce a world which karmically results from this extreme mental poison and the resulting actions. But if such a hell realm is in a different dimension or not, I don't know. When I think about the Pure Lands on the other hand I'm already much more inclined to believe that they're real ;)
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Karma Jinpa » Mon May 12, 2014 3:17 am

The Torch of Certainty is such a gem of a text from Jamgön Kongtrul Lodrö T'ayé, especially since it treats the Four Thoughts so thoroughly and walks you step-by-step through both the outer and inner ngondro. If you're about to embark on the path of the foundational practices of the Kagyu school (and Karma Kamtsang in particular), or have begun already, it's a truly priceless and indispensable as both commentary and reference.

And while I greatly appreciate Judith Hanson's work in bringing the text to the English-speaking world, I think perhaps the translation might need a slight reworking. This could simply be my own particular form of attachment, but I'm not crazy about her use of certain terms in some spots... especially when it comes to the use of overly technical jargon like "trichiliocosm," which may cause confusion rather than clarity for the reader.

I think this same word choice issue could also be part of the reason Kongtrul comes off a bit like a preachy Protestant, as you said, LordCrane... though as always we should understand the context in which this commentary was written. Perhaps someone who's read the original Tibetan can comment on how much is the translator's gloss and how much is the author's tone.

:reading:

Whatever the case, Hanson's grab bag of terminology seems to be more heavily influenced by Western philosophical works than I personally care for. And some of her scholarly sources are outdated or have biased orientalist leanings... With my recent university training, I can't help but shudder a bit inside every time I see the term "Lamaism" in a footnote. Lastly, her phoneticization of Tibetan words seems a bit haphazard and could lead to mispronunciation, even of well known terms.
There's no 'h' sound in Drikung, for instance, just as the suffix 'd' is not pronounced in Kagyu.

:stirthepot:

As for having trouble with the Indian cosmology, you're not the first to have a hard time wrapping your mind around it, nor will you be the last. I found it immensely helpful to learn that the mandala, like most Buddhist teachings and symbolism, has several levels of meaning and various interpretations --- so it's not necessarily to be taken at face value. A good rule of thumb is to always remember there are at least three levels of meaning --- outer, inner, and secret --- and sometimes there are even more --- suchness, etc.

The one explanation that helped me most was how things are mapped out in the concise sadhana of Chöd Lujin as practiced in Karma Kagyu, where the various features correspond to the parts of one's body: Meru is our head and torso, the four continents are our four limbs, the golden ground is our skin, the encircling iron mountains our fingers & toes, the sun and moon our right & left eyes, etc. If you don't have this sadhana at your fingertips but are sufficiently established in the view of Chöd from having received empowerment and teachings, there are a number of references to explore.

I highly suggest Kyabjé Tenga Rinpoche's book, Chö: The Garden of All Joy & Generosity of the Body, which is actually a transcript of a teaching retreat by Rinpoche where he relies on Jamgön Kongtrul's commentary, The Garden of All Joy, and intersperses his own experiential commentary. There are a few spelling mistakes --- you'll find the author listed as "Khabje Tenga Rinpoche" (= 'lord of the house'? Tenga Rinpoche) rather than the intended Kyabje ('lord of refuge'), and the definition of Chö as "to severe" instead of "to sever" --- but these are minor and easy to excuse as having crept in during the editing/publication process. The contents themselves are pure gold.

On page 107 in my copy, there's a diagram which equates the mandala to the body in even greater detail than the aforementioned sadhana itself. PM me if you'd like a scan of it.
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 12, 2014 4:18 am

It is of course a vexed question as to whether maintaining the traditional Buddhist view of re-birth requires acceptance of the 'six realms', which obviously seem anachronistic. But I am wondering whether they actually signify some profound aspect of reality which our scientic outlook simply can't comprehend. As such, they are not anywhere 'out there' - they're not physical realms, but indeed our 'physical' realm -the one we can see with our terrestrial senses and instruments - might only be one aspect or sliver of reality, among a much greater domain which the sages and seers are able to perceive but which we don't. And we can't ever resolve that kind of question 'scientifically' because the scientific method operates within certain parameters which automatically exclude the consideration of certain kinds of ideas.

So my advice is, keep an open mind - but also beware, Tibetan Buddhism in particular, has considerable emphasis on myth and magic. East Asian Buddhism, particularly Zen, tends to be more minimalist and pragmatic, if you like. But all of them are set against the backdrop, explicitly or implicitly, of other domains and the acceptance of the reality of re-birth in them. They are all part of a different world to this one of ours, which is about 5 minutes old.
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Karma Jinpa » Mon May 12, 2014 7:15 am

LordCope wrote:As 21st century practitioners, do you take this stuff with a pinch of salt? Do you view it allegorically? Similarly the exortations on inappropriate sex (oral / anal).

I was actually wondering to myself about the definition of "sexual misconduct" as referred to in the Pratimoksha vows, but was hesitant to make a whole thread topic on it. Guess now that the proverbial cat's outta the bag we can discuss it in more detail. Does anyone know what the Indo-sutric and Indo-tantric understandings of this phrase were? Was this injunction against such misconduct ever explicitly defined or the parameters set out prior to the Pratimoksha vows taking root in Tibet? If so, was there a single standard, or varying interpretations? And how does this (or do these) compare/contrast with the Tibetan understanding/parameters for "sexual misconduct"?

I ask because 99% of the time I've only heard/read this one simple yet nebulous phrase --- "sexual misconduct" --- and it's not explained in any detail, though perhaps this due to my primarily Kagyu & Nyingma associations. In my experience at Ka-Nying events, for the sake of brevity the Pratimoksha vows are (usually) given during the tail end of the Refuge ceremony, which itself is given just prior to empowerment so as to allow more to receive it. Not sure why there seems to be more emphasis on the formal taking of refuge in Ka-Nying circles, whereas it seems, for example, that in the Sakya tradition the recitation of refuge & bodhicitta during the empowerment ritual itself suffices... but perhaps my limited exposure can at least somewhat account for how/why the upasaka vows are given so briefly. The one time I've seen any sort of detailed explanation of what constitutes misconduct is in Transformation of Suffering: A Handbook for Practitioners (pp. 73-74), where a well-respected Drikung Kagyu lama gets very specific:
Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen Rinpoche wrote:Sexual misconduct means having sex with someone who is married; with a pregnant woman; with a person overpowered by depression, sickness, or suffering; or having sex by force. Sexual misconduct also includes having sex in the vicinity of a shrine or stupa; having sex during the daytime, where there is light, or in retreat; having sex with one's parents, brother, sister, or an immature youth; or having sex with the mouth or anus.

Obviously the majority of these prohibitions make good sense and make for some solid ethics. Adultery inevitably leads to problems with the family social unit or exacerbates problems which were already there; both parties should be consenting adults in possession of all their faculties, and not in a compromised mental state; and rape leads to a host of heinous issues and ramifications.

However, should sex with a pregnant woman be completely off the table, even if you are the woman's loving partner? Many couples sleep with each other during at least some portion of the pregnancy, and often the pregnant woman goes through a point where her libido increases. If this is seen as an issue of not wanting to hurt that unborn child through intercourse, would a lesbian couple still be prohibited automatically, or would there be qualifiers? Or is this more related to the status of Tibetan women and the concept that pregnancy somehow makes a woman "impure"?

We don't want to defile the sacred space of shrines and stupas by giving in to our desires and attachment (worldly concerns), but should rather engage in virtuous Dharma practice. Respectful and simple enough. But no sex in the daytime? Why... because we'd be wasting our day (a.k.a. "burning daylight") and presumably not practicing? This one seems to presuppose no self-control on the part of the practitioner. And no sex where there's light? Are there issues of body shame in Tibetan culture that I'm not aware of? Are we all supposed to do things with the lights completely off every time?

The genetic and psychological tolls of incest, evident throughout history, have been studied thoroughly and are well-known. And pedophilia should be abhorrent to everyone. No bueno. However, no oral sex? Is this to say that sex is for procreation, not recreation, without having to actually say it, or does using one's mouth in that way have negative consequences for enlightened speech and the effectiveness of one's mantra recitation? In the same vein, is the prohibition of anal sex about that orifice being deemed unclean, or is does it stem from a larger notion that homosexuals are somehow unable to be Dharma practitioners? What about lesbians who use toys? What about heterosexuals who enjoy that sort of thing?

:shrug:

If anyone has authoritative answers to any of these questions, or can back up their assertions with textual (and preferably scriptural) references, please do so! I've posed all of these questions not to pass judgment on anyone or on the Three Jewels; far be it from me to judge anyone. Rather I'd like to find clarity on this subject which seemed to have been ambiguous. I, for one, am genuinely curious and wouldn't mind learning about the various levels of orthodoxy and orthopraxy involved. I'm sure many others are sincerely interested in this as well...
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Wayfarer » Mon May 12, 2014 8:17 am

this ought to be a new thread. Don't know why the OP included that phrase, it was a guaranteed de-railer. :shrug:
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Karma Jinpa » Mon May 12, 2014 10:26 am

Discussion on Misconduct split to new topic here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=16467#p233119

Mods, please feel free to delete the duplicate post (5/12/14 @ 1:15am) since I can't. Thanks.
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།


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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Andrew108 » Mon May 12, 2014 11:16 am

To get back on topic somewhat....The key point is that the teachings have to become part of your lived experience. Nothing else matters. So certainty here is the certainty gained through direct experience rather than an intellectual certainty. The ability to integrate the teachings with life itself is ALL that matters. It is the only thing that matters.

For some the cosmology is useless and somewhat damaging because a set of beliefs stands between us and the actual knowledge of our condition. Taking refuge is more the appreciation of natural non-fixation than the placing your trust in the teacher based on faith. You trust the teacher, but only because the teachers capacity has been able to point something out for you in your experience. So it goes like that. That is how certainty works.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby Karma Jinpa » Mon May 12, 2014 2:15 pm

LordCope wrote:What I am finding a bit trickier is some of the cosmology: hell beings, Gods of the desire realm, 8 cold hells, death daemons etc. To me this feels like a product of its time, a reflection of its culture... but I don't want to prejudge. As 21st century practitioners, do you take this stuff with a pinch of salt? Do you view it allegorically? [...]

Thoughts? Experiences?

Apologies if what I said earlier about the body & mandala equation confused you rather than informed you. I was trying to help explain the wrong Indian cosmology; you wanted more on the Bhavachakra (Wheel of Life), and I was talking about the Sumeru Mandala which we visualize during mandala offerings. Once you get to that chapter in ToC which covers the 3rd of the 4 sections in the ngondro practice and look at the diagram, I'm sure my words will start to make a bit more sense to you...

As for the WoL, a lot can be said about it. It supposedly was an art form which was prevalent amongst all Buddhist cultures, but somehow died out everywhere but in the Himalayan region where it was somehow preserved. It has now started to make a resurgence from what I understand.

Being swept up in the age of modern psychology and scientific rationalism in the West, many of us have a tendency to psychologize foreign schema of understanding, and especially ones which are ancient in origin. Buddha Shakyamuni didn't "reinvent the wheel," so to speak (pun intended). He drew on ancient concepts and made them part of the Dharma to help his followers see their world in a Buddhist light. The WoL depicts the 6 different types of beings we can be within the Desire Realm (what we typically conceive of as "Samsara," which, when taken with the Form & Formless Realms of various kinds of Devas, makes the Three Realms or the Three-fold Universe).

Each of these six types has a defining characteristic or emotional flaw (devas = pride, ashuras = jealousy, humans = desire, animals = ignorance, pretas = greed, and hell-beings = anger), and as you can see, all of us have or will have experienced each of these emotions throughout our lives. So it's easy to reduce things down to something like "Oooooh, I really, really want that new iPhone, but it's just out of my reach! I'm feeling like such a hungry ghost today... This sucks!" But even from a historical and scholarly perspective, this would be a really narrow view of the elegant and nuanced mythology of the pretas, no less from a Buddhist practitioner.

Now, will we ever prove the existence of these other types of beings who are throughout Buddhist tales and are integral parts of our traditional worldview? I have no idea, but it's interesting to ponder. And are we to take the stories and descriptions of these beings and the places they inhabit literally? While there is a possibility, I for one am much more inclined to believe that there are layers of meaning to these aspects of the Dharma... just as there are outer, inner, and secret levels of understanding in other aspects, and how the tantras were written in twilight language.

I mean, who's to say that such beings aren't inhabiting the same space but on another plane of existence or another dimension, à la Indiana Jones and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? :alien:

*Ducks to avoid thrown tomatoes*


There are many different ways of viewing the more interesting and "out there" parts of the Buddhist worldview, not just literalism and not merely dismissing them as a way to externalize problems. Here are a few resources to check into. Remember that even Shakyamuni Buddha said to not accept everything he said on faith, but to examine it thoroughly so that you're sure you've got gold, not simply stuck with fool's gold.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Wheel_of_Life

http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/20807/the-wheel-of-life-bhavachakra-thangka-a-meditation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology

http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1103&context=cm
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།


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Re: The Torch of Certainty

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Mon May 12, 2014 5:08 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:As to the oral/anal debate, I remember that a Buddhist nun once told me there are some Tibetologists who claim that the passages which forbid oral and anal intercourse are later additions and therefore not authentic. Unfortunately I have forgotten the name(s) of the Tibetologists who make that claim. Maybe somebody else knows?


Somebody has posted the link to the article on the other thread, it is of course the article by Cabezón:

http://info-buddhism.com/Buddhism-Sexuality-Cabezon.html
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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