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How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:34 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:50 am


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:00 am

Greetings Mike,

Well there we go... that firmly places the onus on those who claimed Buddhadasa Bhikkhu denied any form of post-mortem continuance to find real evidence (i.e. not just out of context snippets) to back up their claims.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby zerotime » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:18 am

Respectfully, I think some people must read more things of Buddhadhasa before these precipitated judices.

Those of yours who claim Buddhadhasa is overly intellectual, please compare in this thread viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1764&p=23134#p23134 the texts cited by some people with that from Buddhadhasa cited by myself. What is the more intellectual approach?

This cite:
"It happens often and continuously, but there is no rebirth. There is no such thing, in reality, as rebirth or reincarnation" is not the deny of rebirth but the deny of a concrete (and widely spread) understanding of rebirth. When one is able to understand that explanation rebirth is not a subject to be affirmed or denied.

ask:

- How rebirth can be possible when there is not a self to continue?
- How non-rebirth can be possible when finally there is not a self to die?.

Paticcasamuppada is a deep teaching. Buddhadhasa was able to develop two levels for the explanation. One level is what he named of "Dhamma language". Another level is the common view, in where arises the discussion about rebirth or non.rebirth. One need read and study Buddhadhasa carefully before talking about his teaching.

On my side, I think one must be always far to judge the teaching of wise people with the feeling of being in a supermarket, choosing this or that, to satisfy our intellectual pleasures. Instead that, one must look this wisdom assortment like the sick person inside a medical store: luckily here there is a good assortment of medicines. What medicine can be good for my illness?. We can take the pill if we don't like suppositories but we cannot add doubts over the rest that we don't know neither we have tested.

best,

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:22 am


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:57 am

for me the 2 buddhadasa sides are element who claims he denied rebirth outright and santikaro who lived with him who claims he believed in rebirth but was just not a believer in the old 3 lifetimes model and if you read his reasons i have to agree with buddhadasa, buddhaghosa's 3 lifetimes model seems to me and it seemed to buddhadasa to deny the possability of ever ending samasara cause you always have this future life where kamma plays out so you could never find nibbana in this life only in a future life, which is much like a carrot leading a horse, he never gets the carrot just keeps going forward. also buddhadasa was very insistent on all suffering being boiled down to a belief in me, and mine or what is basicaly a self (atta). its a very fine line to walk because it can easily make one slide off into the sorts of arguments we see about denying rebirth etc.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:01 am

- Peter


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:21 am


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:03 am

if you read buddhadasa's explination it makes sense. but basically it states if the kamma we make has to be drawn out over 3 lives then you always have to have a future life, even if you stopped making kamma right now your past kamma from this life isnt gonna end till the next life so you still have 1 more life. or something like that. the main point is that if youre always working with three lives you cant end it in this life. but if youre not always working with 3 lives whats the point of a 3 life model?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby zerotime » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:18 am

Hi mike,
sorry, my comment was not because your comments. Anyway I include myself in the bad behaviour of supermarket, which is rooted in us from our childhood. In front many good things we tend to point to the "the best" disminishng the rest, and without reallizing all them are of value.

I'm with jcsuperstar in feeling the same brahmanist smell in Buddhaghosa. However, here in the West we don't have the same problems derived of the 3 lives scheme than we can check in the East. And without all that superstition associated with the 3 lives scheme, then also it can be useful to investigate some things. In example to deny the non-rebirth!! :)

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:25 am


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:10 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:13 am

i bet somewhere there are heads spinning as i use buddhadasa to enforce my pro-rebith ideas... :tongue: though you have to admit this is probably the most productive rebirth/buddhadasa thread in existance
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:21 am


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:27 am

exactly, which is why i am saying the 3 life model is flawed.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby nathan » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:39 am

On reflection the three times, past, present and future adequately demonstrate that if kamma making is not brought to an end, clinging, craving and aversion will continue indefinitely irrespective of what body and mind it may be.

If Ven. Buddhadasa brought an end to all this ignorance and dukkha then he both was and is a successful rebirth denier.

For those who can observe they are still kamma making, the depiction of it as the compulsive pursuit of being and becoming is available in the present. What can be observed adequately demonstrates the nature of the problem. When ignorance is not defeated then even death will not free from ongoing cyclic being and becoming.

I don't have any problems with any of the Theravada Bhikkhu writers, east or west. I think they are all misunderstood at points. It gets sorted out in the long run. They have all taught me a lot. I'm very appreciative of all of it and I liked Buddhasasa's writing a lot.
:anjali:
Last edited by nathan on Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:42 am


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:57 am


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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:01 am

so youre saying it has to take place over three lives? cause if so you have to have that 3rd life no matter what you do now, even if you were the buddha youd have to live one more life to eat up that kamma unless the 3 life model is wrong. if you believe you can ge out of samsara without exhausting all your kamma then the 3 life model is wrong is what i'm saying. how can you have a 3 life model if you can get out of it 2nd life? or 1st whatever.

angullimala is the perfect example he clearly had to have created kamma in his last life that should have made for some pretty crappy future lives but he became an arhant, he didnt have to live a future life, he didnt have to experience that kamma played out over 3 lives. the model fails here.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: How are the views of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu regarded?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:10 am

Hmm, I still don't get it. My understanding was that for an Arahant there is nothing to condition the next rebirth. That's what the quote I gave above seemed to be saying.

On the other hand, I think that saying that all aspects of the model need to be over three lives is probably an overinterpretation of what Buddhagosa was saying. Can someone point us to the specific section of the Visuddhimagga?

Mike


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