paramhansa yogananda

[ConradTree]

Back to the actual issue at hand:

The artificially high Gelugpa qualifications for karmamudra practice (have to be able to eat feces, be on the first bhumi etc.)

[JKhedrup]

Actually the topic was Swami Yogananda.

As for artificially high, tomato tomahto. For high level practitioners these concerns are televant but not for us.

Several Karma Kamtsang as well as Gelug lamas I have spoken to hold widespread mistaken karmamydra practice as one of several factors thst contributed to the near disappearance of Buddhism in India.

Many great Nyingma lamas hold this view as well,Dza Patrul Ronpoche and Longchenpa specifically and in the modern period HH Penor Rinpoche.

[ConradTree]

For high level practitioners these concerns are televant but not for us.

This sounds like more Gelugpaism.

Karmamudra can and is practiced by people who have the correct empowerments.

[Konchog1]

My understanding is that Karmamudra as a regular practice isn't needed for Enlightenment. It's needed once. Just once.

Karmamudra can be used to improve one's practice as early as the Generation Stage, but it isn't needed until once at the end of the Completion Stage. Even then, this stage can be skipped and Enlightenment attained in the Bardo instead (as Je Rinpoche did).

The Gelug view is one of risk. More freedom for Karmamudra likely would ruin the Vinaya (again), ruin the reputation of monks and Buddhism, and ruin people's practice (especially monks). If Karmamudra was needed more often, the policy would be different, but it isn't so it isn't

Also, Serkong Dorjechang disrobed before taking a consort right?

[ConradTree]

And Longchenpa was only a monk in his youth. Longchenpa had consorts.

[ConradTree]

The Gelug view is one of risk. More freedom for Karmamudra likely would ruin the Vinaya (again), ruin the reputation of monks and Buddhism, and ruin people's practice (especially monks). If Karmamudra was needed more often, the policy would be different, but it isn't so it isn't

Why would karmamudra ruin the reputation of monks?

No one ever suggested monks engage in karmamudra in the first place.

You have to formally give your monkhood back before sex.

[JKhedrup]

I am not certain.

As for Penor Rinpoche's and Dza Patrul Rinpoche's views being classified above as Gelugpaism, don't know how to respond. As many Kagyu or Nyingma lamas I mention with a conservative approach to this issue, will just be dismissed

[ConradTree]

I am not certain.

As for Penor Rinpoche's and Dza Patrul Rinpoche's views being classified above as Gelugpaism, don't know how to respond. As many Kagyu or Nyingma lamas I mention with a conservative approach to this issue, will just be dismissed

You are just making vague allusions without direct quotes.

I have no idea what you are even talking about in the first place.

[JKhedrup]

I am workng from a handphone in India cut me some some slack.

Shabkar's bio touches on this, and Penor Rinpoche's views are widely googleable. Kongtrul touches on it in the treasury volume on the history of Buddhism.

If I am wrong about Lonchenpa I apologize, but had heard this from a friend who was a student of Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok

[ConradTree]

I am workng from a handphone in India cut me some some slack.

Shabkar's bio touches on this, and Penor Rinpoche's views are widely googleable. Kongtrul touches on it in the treasury volume on the history of Buddhism.

And what do you think they exactly say?

[JKhedrup]

That unqualified practice of the karmamudra teachings due to them being spread too freely caused problems, similar to what those terrible Gelugpas say.

I want to make it clear I am not objecting to the practice of it by great beings like Dilgo Kyentse Rinhe etc.

My worry is that in sex obcessed Western Culture the practices will easily become corrupted. A link was posted in another thread about a guy advertising "Sexual Transmitted Enlightenment" (see the Wheel Turning thread) , the phrase having a trademark logo beside it!

[ConradTree]

That unqualified practice of the karmamudra teachings due to them being spread to freely causrd problems, similar to what those terrible Gelugpas say.

Yet again...

I have not advocated for unqualified practice of karmamudra.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[ConradTree]

Back to the actual issue at hand:

The additional Gelugpa requirements for karmamudra practice (have to be able to eat feces, be on the first bhumi etc.)

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Why would karmamudra ruin the reputation of monks?

No one ever suggested monks engage in karmamudra in the first place.

You have to formally give your monkhood back before sex.

Yes, you must give back your monkhood before sex.

No, you don't have to give back your monkhood before kamramudra practice.
Why?
Because karmamudra practice isn't sex.
How can that be?

The analogy I was given was of a civilized man trying to reform a thug. As part of the reforming process, he gives the thug a rule; do not stab anyone, defined as "cutting someone with a knife". Good rule, right? Ok, then after some time the thug stops his criminality, goes back to school, gets a degree, goes to med school, graduates and becomes a surgeon. So now he is breaking the rule of not stabbing anyone because he is "cutting them with a knife". No, what he is doing is completely different because of the motivation and skillful means he is employing. He is not "stabbing" them at all! But the next thug you're trying to reform says, "Hey, I can stab people all I want. Look at him!". That's why LTK refused to do the practice, because the next "thug" would interpret it back down to his level of unawareness.

As I am fond of quoting ChNN:

A human being has his limits. And thus in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits.

And of all the things in the world that an unaware human being must reinterpret back into his own level of living is what looks like sex to him.

Karmamudra is not sex. That's why a monk can do it, just like a surgeon isn't breaking the rule of not stabbing someone. Unimaginable, right?

[ConradTree]

Are you actually claiming a monk can engage in karmamudra?

That just rubbish.

And citing ChNN, when he says nothing on the subject, is trashing ChNN's good name.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Are you actually claiming a monk can engage in karmamudra?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, and without breaking the vow of celibacy. That is what I have been taught from my conservative Gelug FPMT source.

That just rubbish.

Have you received specic teachings on the subject' like I have? Or are you assuming?

And citing ChNN, when he says nothing on the subject, is trashing ChNN's good name.

The context of the quote was in regards to lineages. However all of dharma is designed to step by step defeat the unaware impulse to take the teachings of great awareness and fit them into what unawareness thinks it knows. That's the problem with unawareness. It doesn't believe it is unaware, it thinks it knows. The quote is applicable in more than the original context.

[ConradTree]

That is what I have been taught from my FPMT source.

Nonsense.

There is no such thing as monks being allowed to engage in karmamudra.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

That is what I have been taught from my FPMT source.

Nonsense.

There is no such thing as monks being allowed to engage in karmamudra.

Have you had specific teachings on the subject like me? If not, then it is you that does not know what they are talking about.

[ConradTree]

Have you had specific teachings on the subject like me? If not, then it is you that does not know what they are talking about.

Yes I have received specific teachings on this.

Please post the lama who told you that monks can engage in physical karmamudra. I will follow up with that lama.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Have you had specific teachings on the subject like me? If not, then it is you that does not know what they are talking about.

Yes I have received specific teachings on this.

Please post the lama who told you that monks can engage in physical karmamudra. I will follow up with that lama.

He died in 1997.

Well then out teachers disagree. Mine was, as I said, of the conservative Gelug FPMT orientation, which if anything should be the most conservative about his subject.

And yours was…?