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Non-duality AND Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel

Non-duality AND Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nathan
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby nathan » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:10 am

I recommend reviewing the words of the Blessed One in these regards.
MN 1 - Mulapariyaya Sutta: The Root Sequence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

By means of Jhana, the mindful attention of consciousness can be reduced, reified or concentrated to one condition. The sphere of awareness of that one condition is the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception; which is to say, only this one condition, without second or in other words without 'the duality of this condition as subject and a secondary condition or group of compounded conditions as object'.

In keeping with this understanding, this single subtlest of conditions, is the same condition which in sequences of contact with any and all arising and passing conditions produces formations or the conventional objects of perception and thereby produces cognizance of all things in the sequences of individuated experience.

This condition arises and passes like all others - very rapidly. This condition appears and in doing so it makes contact or 'clings' momentarily and then vanishes only to arise again in contact with the next object of cognition. In keeping with the conditions pertaining to any given arisen kamma (be it active and/or resultant) it rapidly moves on to take up one object after another in rapid series' of cognitions.

By the uninstructed and untrained these forms of awareness are then misperceived and misconceived as being any number of things that all of this conditionally dependent phenomena is actually not. One such misperception and misconception of our circumstances is that posited by Advaita Vedanta.

Unfortunately, for all parties in disagreement in these regards, this contest cannot be satisfactorily resolved by debate or reasoning, it must be investigated directly and this requires the extensive development of skill in satipatthana and samathavipassana. This kind of meditative work is what I would encourage anyone who truly seeks to satisfactorily resolve these questions undertake to do.

:anjali:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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christopher:::
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby christopher::: » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:24 am

Good points Nathan. One cannot get at the heart of this matter with debate and dualistic reasoning.

Both systems (Buddhist and Advaita) point out what a waste of time that is. These are intellectual ego games. And the only way one can participate is to play that way, configure your mind to think that way. No thanks.

Once again, I'll share the key points made by Seng Tsan, which are in line with what nathan just said. Such discussions simply serve no useful purpose, from the perspective of both Advaita and Zen.

:namaste:

"If you wish to see the truth then hold no opinions for or against anything. To set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind. When the deep meaning of things is not understood the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.

The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking, and there is nothing you will not be able to know. To return to the root is to find the meaning, but to pursue appearances is to miss the source. Do not search for the truth; only cease to cherish opinions. Do not remain in the dualistic state -- avoid such pursuits carefully.

If there is even a trace of this and that, of right and wrong, the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion. When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way, nothing in the world can offend, and when such a thing can no longer offend, it ceases to exist in the old way. When no discriminating thoughts arise, the old mind ceases to exist."


~Seng Tsan
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:32 am


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mikenz66
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:19 am

I don't know enough to contribute to this thread, but I am frustrated by the strange logic that is being used, which seems to be saying something like:

"Analysis is dualistic, therefore I win because you are analysing..." :jedi:

By all means, if you don't want to engage in analysis, don't. It may well be a waste of time to do too much analysis. But why keep repeating that in a thread where analysis is the whole point?

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:32 am


nathan
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby nathan » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:24 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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tiltbillings
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:33 am

Nathan,

Good stuff you wrote. My point was simply that some non-dualists talk about some sort of one thingie, and I am simply asking what is the one thingie that might be the goal of non-dualism?

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christopher:::
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby christopher::: » Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:30 pm

Fascinating, nathan! The seventh jhana is the root ignorance, or still contains qualities of ignorance? And are you saying that all Mahayana experiences are at best seventh jhana or that Mahayana Buddhist conceptions are such? Cause it often seems to me that the great masters (of all traditions) frequently urge practitioners to go beyond all conceptions, in a manner similar to how you are describing the Buddha's advice concerning practice of the eighth jhana..

Dual, nondual, rigpa, One, Tao, whatever.

All conceptions of such must be let go of.

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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clw_uk
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:30 pm

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Individual
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby Individual » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:24 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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tiltbillings
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:25 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:47 pm


nathan
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby nathan » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:06 pm

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

nathan
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby nathan » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:33 pm

If you stop to think about it, states like rigpa, etc. should be easy to get to for someone who has made efforts and entered successfully into the jhanas. When the mind is concentrated it has been trained to stop roaming about in the body and in mental objects. The mind has been conditioned to one extent or another to stay with only a very few conditions and this is why it is such a pleasant thing to accomplish because all of the variously compounded and colored experiences of diversity are abandoned by concentration.

If, upon emerging from one of the jhanas, one turns one's attention to examining the body and the mind one can do very effective vipassana work because the mind is very, very focused. This is the Buddha's advice to us, to do the work of very precisely investigating the causes of our suffering and to abandon these causes so that we do not continue to suffer in the future.

If however one does not then turn to insight work or vipassana, if one allows the mind to once again freely roam about wherever it will then one will not arrive at a clear and direct understanding of the four noble truths. One will however, for a time, note any number of other very interesting 'side effects'. Colors will appear brighter, sounds will appear clearer, smells will appear more prominently, etc.. This is also because the mind has been trained by concentration to abandon, to one extent or another, it's roaming about and so the senses are bringing to it a more complete experience of whatever is being sensed. However, over time, this will slowly revert to the natural mucked up sort of mind that it was before any training was undertaken unless one again resumes concentration practices and again brings the mind into a complete focus. One can repeat this process over and over again, cleansing the mind and then allowing it to get all mucked up again and it will be a positive process but it will not 'educate' the mind regarding the four noble truths and it will not condition the mind to seek complete release from all forms of further being and becoming.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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christopher:::
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby christopher::: » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:05 am

Hi nathan.

I think you have mapped out the "territory" very very well here. I really cannot speak too much of Advaita, for my contact there is limited to discussions with two longterm practitioners, a few key texts i've read, youtube videos and some books.

But as far as Zen & Tibetan Buddhism go, as far as i know they are complete packages, addressing just the sort of things you mention. The mahamudra approach of TB, dzogchen and the Soto Zen school all have the 4NT and 8 fold path as key elements. The dharma is not limited to meditative methods.

Yes, indeed, some Zen & TB practitioners (as well as teachers) consider the elementary teachings secondary, only to fall into the kinds of problems you mention. But I see this with Theravadan practitioners as well, at least in terms of how they can fall into the muck here online, lol.

It's a universal trap, for all practitioners, to stay aware of the very tricky nature of "the monkey mind."

:hug:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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christopher:::
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Re: Non-duality

Postby christopher::: » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:47 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

nathan
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Re: Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism

Postby nathan » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:27 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

nathan
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Re: Non-duality

Postby nathan » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:12 am

Last edited by nathan on Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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tiltbillings
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Re: Non-duality

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:31 am

Non-duality And Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism have acheived oneness. No point in having two threads covering the same ground. Sorry for any confusion.

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christopher:::
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Re: Non-duality

Postby christopher::: » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:46 am

"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009


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