Satori/Kensho

[JamyangTashi]

In the specific circumstance I am referring to an individual is able to enter a plane of consciousness were his written statements seem to imply an different meaning than what is plainly written in the text - a form of double-entendre which seems to have a self-emphasizing quality which enhances the secondary or alternate meaning of the statement for those able to pick up on it. Moreover this individual has some very base conversational proclivities which disparage women while inflating their own sense of worth. In short the individual is megalomanical and their words are hypnogogic and sexually excitatory. These types of influential characteristics make the person not only a danger to themselves but to others (which is why I made the Manson and Koresh comparison) and so I was looking for some information wherewith I could reason with individual.

This sounds a lot like Schizotypal Personality Disorder and might be worth seeking professional help to handle.

Inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);
Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric or peculiar;
Poor rapport with others and a tendency to withdraw socially;
Odd beliefs or magical thinking, influencing behavior and inconsistent with subcultural norms;
Suspiciousness or paranoid ideas;
Obsessive ruminations without inner resistance, often with dysmorphophobic, sexual or aggressive contents;
Unusual perceptual experiences including somatosensory (bodily) or other illusions, depersonalization or derealization;
Vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, over-elaborate or stereotyped thinking, manifested by odd speech or in other ways, without gross incoherence;
Occasional transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions, auditory or other hallucinations and delusion-like ideas, usually occurring without external provocation.

The disorder runs a chronic course with fluctuations of intensity. Occasionally it evolves into overt schizophrenia. There is no definite onset and its evolution and course are usually those of a personality disorder. It is more common in individuals related to people with schizophrenia and is believed to be part of the genetic "spectrum" of schizophrenia.

[Roneen]

This sounds a lot like Schizotypal Personality Disorder and might be worth seeking professional help to handle.

There can be no doubt that the individual is deluded and the Manson/Koresh comparison was to emphasize not only the messianic component of their delusion but also the charismatic quality of their presence. While I don't believe this individual wants to intentionally hurt or cause harm to anyone they are manifesting and entrapping others in a very powerful delusion.

[garudha]

These types of influential characteristics make the person not only a danger to themselves but to others (which is why I made the Manson and Koresh comparison) and so I was looking for some information wherewith I could reason with individual.

Such people are often beyond reason as they often very much believe this reality to be intrinsically false. A reminder that the Buddha taught compassion might help them. Ironically, as they're often convinced that their own actions are out of compassion, it can be difficult trying to reason with them.

Did you try to reason with them already ?

[Roneen]

These types of influential characteristics make the person not only a danger to themselves but to others (which is why I made the Manson and Koresh comparison) and so I was looking for some information wherewith I could reason with individual.

Such people are often beyond reason as they often very much believe this reality to be intrinsically false. A reminder that the Buddha taught compassion might help them. Ironically, as they're often convinced that their own actions are out of compassion, it can be difficult trying to reason with them.

Did you try to reason with them already ?

I speak with the individual on a regular basis and since they believe themselves to be a reincarnated Judeo/Christian prophetic figure I, true to religious form, am trying to perform an exorcism. My rationalizing strategy is closer to Sun Tzu's, The Art of War than the Dhammapada but I may consider a change of strategy. I'm mainly interested in severing the delusive bond he has formed with two people one of which he has convinced is the prophet Enoch. He solicits money from these people who are deluded enough to believe he is who he says he is. Day in and day out he programs them with mind-numbing judeo/christian effluvium. I'm trying to present evidence to his two disciples (who staunchly defend their persecuted prophet) that he is deluded - not easy since they are deluded as well. In closing, someone once told me if you want to get someone's attention to hit 'em in the pocket book. At any rate, thank you for the advice and thank you everyone else for you help in this matter.


Regards

[garudha]

Did you try to reason with them already ?

I speak with the individual on a regular basis and since they believe themselves to be a reincarnated Judeo/Christian prophetic figure I, true to religious form, am trying to perform an exorcism.
Regards

Funny, I've been emailing someone like this, myself. The basis if their delusion seems to be mainly by way of coincidence although they do seem to have had some (terrifying) mystical experience which I don't doubt seemed real to them.

There seems to a good number of these same historical characters manifested all at the same time.

they are manifesting and entrapping others

You say they are manifesting others ? Maybe they really are who they claim to be !!

[Roneen]

Funny, I've been emailing someone like this, myself. The basis if their delusion seems to be mainly by way of coincidence although they do seem to have had some (terrifying) mystical experience which I don't doubt seemed real to them.

There seems to a good number of these same historical characters manifested all at the same time.

I live in the U.S. and this individual lives in Japan (of all places) and they believe themselves to be a reincarnated prophetic figure of biblical renown. This person's m.o. is straight out of a text book called, How to be cult leader." The main issues here are that I sincerely believe that this person has had some sort of mystical experience they demonstrate what appear to be siddhis. Stronger willed people are not affected by his hypnotic ability but weaker-minded people are which just help feed his delusion. In truth he isn't really causing any harm to the people who he has duped into believing he is who he says he is it's just that his entire spiel is, for lack of better words, a crock. To provide you with an overt example of his delusion, this individual has interpreted all of the 84 lost plates of Nostradamus to be a prophetic indication of his arrival and mission on earth. The individuals whom he has captivated with this nonsense are being deprived of the possibility of knowing the truth.

they are manifesting and entrapping others

You say they are manifesting others ? Maybe they really are who they claim to be !!

No, what I said was he is able to manifest a powerful delusion which entraps, keeps captivated, imprisons the understanding of others. If I weren't such a skeptic I might be apt to visualize this person as a giant spider binding his acolytes with webbing and then slowing feeding on them. Of course what is really happening is this person has had some sort of awakening experience which has somehow managed to correlate with the biblical version of God and he now solicits money on various internet boards and from unsuspecting and gullible people with his spiritual clap-trap. I'm just trying to let this person know through a variety of means that he is delusional.

Maybe they really are who they claim to be !!

good one.

[Wayfarer]

That's spectacular. I was going to contribute something, albeit Astus and Meido have already provided the important points, but it seems like something else again that you're dealing with here.

I was dealt a salutary lesson in the 1980's when I started noticing books by someone who also turned out to be, probably, a cult leader, based at the time on the West coast of the USA. But his books and other publications were amazing. I even went to a talk by some of his local reps. But I did suspect it was a cult and eventually decided against being involved. Eventually a scandal hit the press, and the leader left the USA, and I felt that my suspicions had been vindicated.

But the point is, this person had real gifts or 'charisms', in the technical terminology of religious studies. I learned some important ideas from his books that have stayed with me, and also learned that some degree - even a very high degree - of gnostic insight - can exist in someone with apparently manifest character flaws.

But I think in light of what you say above, it might be advisable to simply stay clear of this person. They can be very powerful in their own way.

[Roneen]

Reply to jeeprs

I think you've adequately explained the type of person I'm trying to describe although they haven't been as successful as the person in your example. The 'charisms' as you put it are certainly there despite manifest character flaws which is what I found so peculiar. The reading suggestions by the two members you mentioned were EXACTLY what I was looking for. I don't scare easily and can dance the jig around a camp-fire with the best of 'em.I consider the dispelling of ignorance and delusion a public service.



ETA: If this person was the Bodhisattva they claim to be I dare say that they should be trying to liberate people from delusion not causing it. I've also consider the possibility that they are just a different type of Bodhisattva one that has a greater density than what one might traditionally expect. If such a reality were possible I would still lean towards dispelling ignorance.

[Astus]

The actual meaning of the words satori and kensho should also be given some consideration. Satori literally means understanding, comprehension of something, in this case that something is the ultimate truth of reality. Kensho means to see the nature, that is, to perceive the true nature of mind. Reality is of course the same as the nature of mind, so practically the two words can be used as synonyms. And the reality of mind to be understood and perceived is that no matter what experience there is, it is unstable and impermanent. So, when one calls something an experience of satori/kensho, it is necessarily not that, as it is only another fleeting mental phenomenon and nothing special at all. Understanding the ultimate truth means not attaching to any of our changing moments of life. Thus it is taught that the truth is unattainable and that there is nothing to attain. Seeing that there is nothing to attain is the real attainment, or rather non-attainment.

"Neither grasping at form and sound outside nor allowing a false thought to arise inside is known as attainment. However, when there is attainment, there should be no thought of attainment; and this is known as having non-attainment. Furthermore, when non-attainment is realized, there should be no thought of non-attainment; and this is known as not having non-attainment."
(Dazhu Huihai: Treatise On Entering The Tao of Sudden Enlightenment, tr. Lok To)

[Wayfarer]

Thus it is taught that the truth is unattainable and that there is nothing to attain.

With all due respect, I don't agree with that interpretation. There are degrees of realisation and these are validated within Zen orders, as I understand it. Not everyone reaches the same level of realization. There is an enormous amount of literature and testimony about 'genuine realization'; there are those that understand it, who are pointed out as exemplars, and logically that must mean there are those who don't.

I think the problem arises from the idea that 'I am enlightened' or even that 'such and such a person is enlightened'. As Suzuki-roshi said in Zen Mind Beginner's Mind 'strictly speaking there are no enlightened people, only enlightened activities'. So it is not as if 'bodhi' is some stationary never-changing state, that would be against the intent of the teaching. But it is nevertheless real, something that can be understood (or not).

I think Zen teaches that satori is the beginning, not the be-all and end-all, as Meido said above.

Incidentally, an interesting cross-cultural comparison: 'the unnattainable is attained by non-attainment' ~ Nicholas of Cusa .

[Roneen]

...

I agree and apologize for my generic use of the terms kensho/satori. I merely meant to convey that having an experience which allows one a brief glimpse into the true nature of reality is not a guarantee of being free from delusion nor should such an experience be used as an authentication that one is a giant purple dinosaur.

[Astus]

There are degrees of realisation and these are validated within Zen orders, as I understand it. Not everyone reaches the same level of realization.

Yes, of course, Buddhism has various forms of interpretations regarding the stages on the path, from the four levels of arya sravakas to the fifty-two levels of bodhisattvas. Scriptures popular in Zen, like the Diamond Sutra and the Shurangama Sutra, also mention them. That's part of being a gradual path. However, Dazhu Huihai was more of a representative of the immediate realisation (dunwu/tongo 頓悟) teaching, so talks about no attainment is the norm in such a text.

[Wayfarer]

I see! Thanks for the clarification.

[oushi]

Is there a danger for a person who experiences Satori/Kensho to draw false conclusions. For example, I am the ANTI-CHRIST or I AM LINJI or I AM a PURPLE ELEPHANT, etc.?

This question caught my attention.
Kensho will remove the idea you hold about yourself (persona). You will be who you are, not who you thought you are.

Since one does not hold any idea about himself, there is no basis for intentional transformation from what one is, to what one wants to be. He does not identify with no one.

[seeker242]

IOW, the satori/kensho experience can be misleading and cause people to develop an erroneosu perception of reality

I would not go so far as to say that. Because people already have an erroneous perception of reality to begin with. The problem is not a satori/kensho experience but rather viewing the satori/kensho experience as a "I got enlightenment, so I no longer have an erroneous perception of reality" idea, when in fact they still do have erroneous perceptions. But it's not the satori/kensho experience that causes the misleading, it's really just the pre-existing erroneous perceptions, being laid on top of the experience, that cause that.

[garudha]

Did you try to reason with them already ?

I speak with the individual on a regular basis...

I'm mainly interested in severing the delusive bond he has formed with two people one of which he has convinced is the prophet Enoch. He solicits money from these people who are deluded enough to believe
Regards

Everyone in life is on their own path of self-discovery. Whilst you seem like a very compassionate person, are you sure you're able to judge that the path which these people are on is, ultimately, not right for themselves ?

I'll be honest. I think you might be smothering these people with too much unneeded compassion. Like unneeded wisdom is received as arrogance. Too much compassion is also received negatively. You might be driving them further into delusion!

What if these events, in these people's lives, are the very events that must happen for them to realise their freedom ?

How can you presume any imperfection of manifested dharma even exists in the world if you're not like a god yourself ?

But then; by my own logic; your help is part of the perfection that exists.

This world bizarrely is!

Let it be!
What else is there to do ?

[Roneen]

Is there a danger for a person who experiences Satori/Kensho to draw false conclusions. For example, I am the ANTI-CHRIST or I AM LINJI or I AM a PURPLE ELEPHANT, etc.?

This question caught my attention.
Kensho will remove the idea you hold about yourself (persona). You will be who you are, not who you thought you are.

Since one does not hold any idea about himself, there is no basis for intentional transformation from what one is, to what one wants to be. He does not identify with no one.

That's a good distinction.

I'm curious now as well about the different types of spiritual/mystical experiences one could have? As was written in the Surangama Sutra,

"Further, you may regard some little progress as complete achievement like the untutored Bhiku."

I would wonder what little progress could someone experience that would cause them to falsely conclude that they are the Mighty Thor? The appearance of a hammer and a steed that can do tricks don't help the delusion they only feed it? Besides that they are minimally effective tools in helping to promote this individuals delusion.


On another note I was curious about charisms/siddis which another poster mentioned. I wonder if there are any writings which explain the circumstances of their appearance. For example, are they naturally occurring? Is there a spatial relationship - the bigger you are the more gadgets your batman utility belt can hold? Is there an actual age factor involved - grow older grow wiser? I am very skeptical and would love to be able to understand this sort of phenomena from a scientific vantage rather than having to just accept that there are sith lords walking around which look like jedis.

[Roneen]

Did you try to reason with them already ?

I speak with the individual on a regular basis...

I'm mainly interested in severing the delusive bond he has formed with two people one of which he has convinced is the prophet Enoch. He solicits money from these people who are deluded enough to believe
Regards

Everyone in life is on their own path of self-discovery. Whilst you seem like a very compassionate person, are you sure you're able to judge that the path which these people are on is, ultimately, not right for themselves ?

I'll be honest. I think you might be smothering these people with too much unneeded compassion. Like unneeded wisdom is received as arrogance. Too much compassion is also received negatively. You might be driving them further into delusion!

What if these events, in these people's lives, are the very events that must happen for them to realise their freedom ?

How can you presume any imperfection of manifested dharma even exists in the world if you're not like a god yourself ?

But then; by my own logic; your help is part of the perfection that exists.

This world bizarrely is!

Let it be!
What else is there to do ?

I gathered this impression from our last interaction and actually posted this very ideaon another forum where myself and a few others are having an impromptu discussion about this individual. I wrote: "that perhaps it is necessary for some people to be be deluded - that is to say that there are people in this world who's sole purpose for being is to spiritually hobble others."

It may not seem like that is what they are doing when they look at themselves. This is what I would call ignorance and so every attempt should be made to educate an individual and those held captive by ignorance. Not knowing is the enemy of progress from pragmatically speaking. However, if the individuals being confronted and apprised of their error still persist while appearing angry and inconvenienced by education then perhaps they should just be left alone. I would always be watchful however that more people would not fall into their grasp. Perhaps they can be used as an efficacious learning tool of some sort? One could always promote their delusion in an ironic psychological twist in the hopes of attracting people who could then be plucked from the fowlers snare?

[Kaccāni]

Hmm. If you have a Satori experience, you've made an important start.

If you're on a path to lose weight and you skip dinner once, you've made an important start.
But you don't have achieved a state yet, where skipping dinner (or reducing the amount of food you eat or increasing the exercise you make) has become a habit you no longer actively need to pursue, but it comes to you as natural.

If you have a Satori experience, you've raised your head out from the water once. That does not mean you will not drown again in the next second. But even if you drown, you know that up there somewhere you can stick your head out. And even if it will take a while until you reach the surface again, if you stick your head out the second time again, you will not be as surprised or puzzled as the first time, but you will recognize it.

The longer you practice the easier will it be for you to reach the surface. You've reversed the drift from "deeper down into the water" toward the surface. And eventually will come a time where your head will be out of the water most of the time, where you only occasionally dip in and quickly get it back out.

Does that mean you will never ever drown again? Of course not, it will happen. Even the Buddha drowned. You will stop drowning when your body dies.

If you think "I am enlightened now" after having an occasional Satori experience, that's the quickest way to drown again and drown even deeper than before, because you instantly recreated drowning-ego.

Once you're able to keep your head out of the water most of the time you're free to swim or dive as you feel.

Regards
Gwenn

[Meido]

This is a very interesting and Iine of thought you have elucidated. Especially the distinction between Kensho and what you refer to as the "'Expansive, I am God', 'Make me one with everything'" experience I hadn't really ever considered that the two experiences were unique? For example, in some mystical experiences communication is experienced in a sort of timelessness without the usual linear coherency one is accustomed to, say like reading letters and words in context to derive meaning. Somehow the cognitive process appears to derive information supra-rationally from disparate; logically disconnected sources. In other experiences people purport to be God?! In the specific circumstance I am referring to an individual is able to enter a plane of consciousness were his written statements seem to imply an different meaning than what is plainly written in the text - a form of double-entendre which seems to have a self-emphasizing quality which enhances the secondary or alternate meaning of the statement for those able to pick up on it. Moreover this individual has some very base conversational proclivities which disparage women while inflating their own sense of worth. In short the individual is megalomanical and their words are hypnogogic and sexually excitatory. These types of influential characteristics make the person not only a danger to themselves but to others (which is why I made the Manson and Koresh comparison) and so I was looking for some information wherewith I could reason with individual.

"Oneness" experiences are not uncommon. They seem like they should be wisdom. But there's still "I, me, mine" in them...even if that "I" seems to be the universe, "me" seems inseparable from "you", and "mine" appears to be everything everywhere.

Best case scenario: arriving at that place, which is not without merit, one can take the further crucial step which drops even this so-called universal self. A teacher is important here.

In other cases we end up with someone who doesn't take that further step, but is still relatively benign: universal oneness and a bigger perspective are not such bad things, actually, so at least some spiritual figures who have had this experience deeply might not do harm. They could benefit some folks. It's just not liberation from our standpoint.

Worst case: one gets stuck in it and uses it to rationalize/feed deluded tendencies. The result is a spoiled child whose playground has suddenly become the entire universe, and whose toys are all people and all things. Add to this some amount of natural charisma, energetic power and so on and voila: instant cult leader.

Lots of kensho experiences folks think they've had are actually not it at all. Lots of folks who've recognized their nature do not undertake or continue the important cultivation afterward to return to it again and again, deepen and refine it, and embody it: a truly difficult and lifelong training.

~ Meido