Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Diamondsean » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:44 am

Brief Biography of Lodro Palden Rinpoche
——Nyala Pema Duddul’s Tulku

Lodro Palden Rinpoche was born at Bamay Town, Da’u (Daofu) County Sichuan Province in the Water Hare year of the 16th circle (AD1963). As a child, he displayed the wondrous virtuous habits acquired through numerous conducts of Bodhisattva vow in many past incarnations.
At the age from 18 to 20, he learned The Words of My Perfect Teacher and The Way of The Bodhisattva, together with other Dharma teachings from Lama Tsering, hence gained deeper and deeper understanding of Buddhist doctrine and the way of Dharma practice. Then he took a solitary retreat at a nearby cave, exerted himself in practicing the Dzogchen preliminary.
In 1983, when he was 21, he went to Sertar Larung Gar to study under the guidance of the Vajra Guru Dharma King Jikme Phuntsok Rinpoche, and was ordained to be a monk. At that time, there were only about twenty disciples gathering around the Dharma King.
In 1986, he was granted the degree of khenpo by the Dharma King Rinpoche himself after the assiduous listening, reflecting and practising during three years, and regarded as the heart son by the Dharma King.
In 1987, he followed the Dharma King Rinpoche to go on a pilgrimage to Mount Wu Tai, the sacred mountain of Manjushri.
From 1989 on, Lodro Palden Rinpoche was appointed by his guru as the khenpo of Minyak Shedra at Penor Reche which was established by the Dharma King. He had been teaching there tirelessly for nine years.
In May of 1998, the Dharma King Rinpoche came to Minyak Shedra to give Dharma instructions for seven days, then brought Khenpo Lodro Palden back to Sertar Larung Gar, and appointed him to preside over the Shedra of Deutrulkod (Dongzhi) Monastery. Deutrulkod (Dongzhi) Monastery lies on the Sacred Mount Drakkar in Nyarong (Xinlong) County. It is the Home Temple of Lerab Lingpa, who is the former incarnation of the Dharma King Jikme Phuntsok Rinpoche. The Dharma King Rinpoche had traveled to the Sacred Mount Drakkar for four times.
The Dharma King ever significantly said, ‘Khenpo Loden (Khenpo Lodro Palden Rinpoche) should stay at Deutrulkod (Dongzhi) Monastery for three years, maybe he will stay there all along, the tendrel (the dependent arising) is especially auspicious for him to go there!’ Then the Dharma King recited three times of Wangdu (The Great Cloud of Prayers and Blessings that Subdue the Entire Animate and Inanimate Worlds) to bless him.
During Khenpo Loden’s presidency over the Shedra of Deutrulkod (Dongzhi) Monastery, the old Lama Barlo of Kalzang (Garong) Monastery ,who is the nephew of Lerab Lingpa’s consort Sonam Drolma, foresaw his own life in the world was going exhausted, and the Dharma King Rinpoche’s health was not good at the meantime. Thereupon the old Lama Barlo commanded his attendants to carry him to visit the Dharma King, enquired about the long suspended decision of the incarnation of Pema Chöpel Gyatso, who is Lerab Lingpa’s son as one of the important lineage holders.
The Dharma King told him, ‘Khenpo Loden is exactly the reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa’s youngest son Pema Chöpel Gyatso. You should arrange for it, the enthronement ceremony is supposed to be inaugurated as soon as possible.’
On June 8, 2003 of Tibetan calendar, under the instruction of the Dharma King, the enthronement ceremony was performed grandly at the Sacred Mount Drakkar where the Great Siddha Nyala Pema Duddul ever practiced and realized the rainbow body.
Then Khenpo Lodro Palden Rinpoche was formally recognized as the Tulku of Chöpel Gyatso, the Great Rainbow Body Siddha. Khandro Montsok Rinpoche① presented the statue of Buddha Amitayus, sutras and tantras, apparels and Tibetan carpet etc. as the symbol of Buddha’s body, speech and mind.
In the autumn of 2006, Tulku Tenzin Gyatso Rinpoche②, the vice director of Sertar Larung Gar, wrote the long life prayer for Khenpo Lodro Palden Rinpoche, praised him as ‘Supreme spiritual friend’, especially announced him to be the great successor of Lerab Lingpa’s terma lineage, and wish him to remain secure in the world, widely spread Dharma and benefit all beings.


① Khandro Mentsok Rinpoche is the nephew of the dharma King Jikme Phuntsok Rinpoche, the reincarnation of Lerab Lingpa’s consort Pumo. She succeeded to be the director of Larung Gar after the Dharma king passed into parinirvana in 2004.
② Tulku Tenzin Gyatso Rinpoche was appointed as the vice director of Larung Gar by the Dharma King himself, one of the main teachers in the shedra.

How Pema Chopel Gyatso was recognized as Nyala Pema Duddul's Tulku
Before Lerab Lingpa passed into parinirvana, his two main consorts Pumo and Sonam Drolma (the mother of Chopel Gyatso) asked where they should settled down later on. Lerab Lingpa instructed that they should stay at sacred Mount Lhangdrak always. So they moved to Deutrulkod of Mount Lhangdrak, which was built for Lerab Lingpa by the 13rd Dalai Lama, half an hour walk from Kalzang Monastery. They remained there all their lives left. When they got there, Chopel Gyatso was only about eight years old.

There was an old monk in Kalzang Monastery. He was a shepherd boy before. One day he saw Nyala Pema Duddul was meditating under a tree below Kalzang Monastery, he went over and bowed down to the master. They had a dialogue. There was no any other person present during this meeting. Not long after Nyala Pema Duddul passed into parinirvana, the shepherd boy decided to be ordained as a monk in Kalzang Monastery.

One day, the old monk met Chopel Gyatso. The eight-year-old boy called his name and asked if he still remembered their meeting before. Then the boy repeated the exact dialogue they did have. Tears dropped down from his eyes immediately, he exclaimed, “You are the Master!”

He went to the Abbot of Kalzang Monastery and told the whole story, but the Abbot was still skeptical. After all, the Abbot decided to verify the truth himself. He prepared five caskets, all were full of various doctrines, statue and other dharma objects. One of them was specially put in doctrines and other dharma items ever used by Nyala Pema Duddul. He went to the boy Chopel Gyatso, asked him which casket belonged to himself. Without any hesitation, the boy pointed out the exact one. Same as the old monk, tears dropped down from the Abbot's eyes, he exclaimed, “You are the Master!”

Pema Chopel Gyatso lived a very simple life. He never left Mount Lhangdrak before he was entrapped into jail at Barmay. Not long after that, he passed into parinirvana at Barmay, no relic was ever found.

The fact that Chopel Gyatso is Nyala Pema Duddul's Tulku is known to small confine. The late Sherab Ozer Rinpoche of Kalzang Monastery assured that there is a prediction in Lerab Lingpa's Terma about Chopel Gyatso's coming.


Contact: Sean
Email: diamondsean@live.cn
Attachments
Khenpo Loden Rinpoche.jpg
Khenpo Loden Rinpoche.jpg (67.11 KiB) Viewed 2310 times
Last edited by Diamondsean on Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Diamondsean
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:13 am

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:15 pm

Diamondsean wrote:Brief Biography of Lodro Palden Rinpoche
——Nyala Pema Duddul’s Tulku


I don't believe this at all. Nyala Pema Duddul achieved rainbow body which means no more incarnations. Saying there's a tulku of his is like saying that there's a tulku of Buddha Shakyamuni.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby mutsuk » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:44 pm

Pero wrote:
Diamondsean wrote:Brief Biography of Lodro Palden Rinpoche
——Nyala Pema Duddul’s Tulku


I don't believe this at all. Nyala Pema Duddul achieved rainbow body which means no more incarnations. Saying there's a tulku of his is like saying that there's a tulku of Buddha Shakyamuni.


Sure, that is quite a problem, especially since he is not the only one in this situation, there are others as well who are said to be tulkus of masters who have done rainbow body. I wonder what lineage holders have to say about this. Anybody got any first hand info to share about that problem?
mutsuk
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby narraboth » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:13 pm

I don't understand, I read the article, and it says that great Khen Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche recognised him as the incarnation of Pema Chopel gyaltso, who's the son of Lerab Lingpa. Rinpoche didn't say that he is the incarnation of Pema Duddul?

If he is Pema Chopel Gyaltso's tulku as described, it's good enough. I read things about him in Chinese, there's nothing about Pema duddul's tulku. The Chinese introduction only mentions that he is the incarnation of Pema Chopel Gyaltso. Maybe there's misunderstanding when someone posted this in English.
narraboth
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:18 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:44 pm

narraboth wrote:I don't understand, I read the article, and it says that great Khen Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche recognised him as the incarnation of Pema Chopel gyaltso, who's the son of Lerab Lingpa. Rinpoche didn't say that he is the incarnation of Pema Duddul?

If he is Pema Chopel Gyaltso's tulku as described, it's good enough. I read things about him in Chinese, there's nothing about Pema duddul's tulku. The Chinese introduction only mentions that he is the incarnation of Pema Chopel Gyaltso. Maybe there's misunderstanding when someone posted this in English.


The title itself says:

Nyala Pema Duddul’s Tulku


Then it says:

Then Khenpo Lodro Palden Rinpoche was formally recognized as the Tulku of Chöpel Gyatso, the Great Rainbow Body Siddha.


Since in the previous sentence it says:

where the Great Siddha Nyala Pema Duddul ever practiced and realized the rainbow body.


I at first thought Chopel Gyatso is another name of Nyala Pema Duddul (and also because of the title). However upon a second reading (and google search haha) I don't think so. I suppose the title could have been a mistake. Nevertheless, it still says that Chopel Gyatso was a Rainbow Body Siddha in which case he should not have a reincarnation.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Jalupa's emanation

Postby Diamondsean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:51 am

I thought that a Jalupa (Rainbow Body Accomplished One) would not come back again. Same as what you think now. But unfortunately it is wrong!

Another example is Tulku Phurba Tashi, the heart-son of the famous Great Nyingma Master Lungtok Gyaltsen Rinpoche (Lama Achuk) of Yarchen Monastery. The former incarnation of Tulku Phurba Tashi is Tulku Namgyal of Litang Zong, a terton who attained rainbow body even without nail and hair left in 1960s. Tulku Phurba Tashi mastered the four visions of tögal early at twenty years old and was assured by the Dharma King Jikme Phuntsok Rinpoche. Now he teaches Dzogchen widely in China.

Khenpo Achung of Lumorab Monastery founded by Terton Rangrik Dorje, attained rainbow body without nail and hair left too in 1998. Before he passed into parinirvana, his close disciples asked him to remain longer, he said: "from here on I will be in front of Vajrasattva. No more than two or three years, I will attain full enlightenment. Then I will come here back again to continue the great activities of benefiting teaching and beings". He also predicted the accurate birthplace of the future incarnation.
Diamondsean
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:13 am

How Chopel Gyatso was recognized as Nyala Pema Duddul's Tulk

Postby Diamondsean » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:58 pm

How Pema Chopel Gyatso was recognized as Nyala Pema Duddul's Tulku

Before Lerab Lingpa passed into parinirvana, his two main consorts Pumo and Sonam Drolma (the mother of Chopel Gyatso) asked where they should settled down later on. Lerab Lingpa instructed that they should stay at sacred Mount Lhangdrak always. So they moved to Deutrulkod of Mount Lhangdrak, which was built for Lerab Lingpa by the 13rd Dalai Lama, half an hour walk from Kalzang Monastery. They remained there all their lives left. When they got there, Chopel Gyatso was only about eight years old.

There was an old monk in Kalzang Monastery. He was a shepherd boy before. One day he saw Nyala Pema Duddul was meditating under a tree below Kalzang Monastery, he went over and bowed down to the master. They had a dialogue. There was no any other person present during this meeting. Not long after Nyala Pema Duddul passed into parinirvana, the shepherd boy decided to be ordained as a monk in Kalzang Monastery.

One day, the old monk met Chopel Gyatso. The eight-year-old boy called his name and asked if he still remembered their meeting before. Then the boy repeated the exact dialogue they did have. Tears dropped down from his eyes immediately, he exclaimed, “You are the Master!”

He went to the Abbot of Kalzang Monastery and told the whole story, but the Abbot was still skeptical. After all, the Abbot decided to verify the truth himself. He prepared five caskets, all were full of various doctrines, statue and other dharma objects. One of them was specially put in doctrines and other dharma items ever used by Nyala Pema Duddul. He went to the boy Chopel Gyatso, asked him which casket belonged to himself. Without any hesitation, the boy pointed out the exact one. Same as the old monk, tears dropped down from the Abbot's eyes, he exclaimed, “You are the Master!”

Pema Chopel Gyatso lived a very simple life. He never left Mount Lhangdrak before he was entrapped into jail at Barmay. Not long after that, he passed into parinirvana at Barmay, no relic was ever found.

The fact that Chopel Gyatso is Nyala Pema Duddul's Tulku is known to small confine. The late Sherab Ozer Rinpoche of Kalzang Monastery assured that there is a prediction in Lerab Lingpa's Terma about Chopel Gyatso's coming.
Diamondsean
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:13 am

Re: Jalupa's emanation

Postby Pero » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:34 pm

Diamondsean wrote:I thought that a Jalupa (Rainbow Body Accomplished One) would not come back again. Same as what you think now. But unfortunately it is wrong!


I don't think so. I mean really if this kind of thing were possible then we'd be seeing tulkus of the greatest masters like Shakyamuni, Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, Vimalamitra etc. but we don't.
Also parinirvana = no more rebirths.

The only way to get out of this is if there is some confusion and with "tulku" is actually meant an emanation and not an actual reincarnation. Like there's supposed to be an emanation of Vimalamitra every century or something.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Jalupa's emanation

Postby heart » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:25 am

Pero wrote:
Diamondsean wrote:I thought that a Jalupa (Rainbow Body Accomplished One) would not come back again. Same as what you think now. But unfortunately it is wrong!


I don't think so. I mean really if this kind of thing were possible then we'd be seeing tulkus of the greatest masters like Shakyamuni, Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, Vimalamitra etc. but we don't.
Also parinirvana = no more rebirths.

The only way to get out of this is if there is some confusion and with "tulku" is actually meant an emanation and not an actual reincarnation. Like there's supposed to be an emanation of Vimalamitra every century or something.


I agree with you Pero.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Extract from "The Dark Red Amulet"

Postby Diamondsean » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:48 am

Sangye Yeshe Rinpoche lived for 125 years and then transformed into
the wisdom rainbow body. He had many reincarnations who were born in Tibet and became great tertöns and scholars or meditation masters. Two of the most renowned reincarnations of Sangye Yeshe Rinpoche were Tsasum Lingpa and Mipham Rinpoche.

--Extracted from "The Dark Red Amulet", Page 26.
Diamondsean
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:13 am

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby pemachophel » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:30 pm

Who says those who achieve rainbow body can't have tulkus? In fact, they are even more capable of having emanations, limitless emanations. We shouldn't think of rainbow body as being some kind of extinction.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
pemachophel
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:31 am

pemachophel wrote:Who says those who achieve rainbow body can't have tulkus? In fact, they are even more capable of having emanations, limitless emanations. We shouldn't think of rainbow body as being some kind of extinction.


Yes, emanations, not reincarnations. Like I mentioned Vimalamitra above. But a tulku in general is someone who was recognized as a reincarnation of a highly (or so) realized being. So Vimalamitra himself doesn't reincarnate anymore. As far as I remember he's supposed to be still hanging around Wudang. :smile:


BTW, nice to see you here Bob. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:23 am

Pero, "trulku" literally means nirmanakaya or gross emanation body... Tibetans have used a bit of poetic license in referring to former practitioners of a wide range of levels of realization or experience - some not even on the arya level yet - as tulkus. Since nirmanakayas tend to enter this human world through human mothers, quite literally appearing in ordinary flesh bodies, this means they "reincarnate." I don't think that word can only be restricted to ordinary beings who are forced to be reborn due to karma, because the gross physical part of the rebirthing process itself is not what's different, but rather the reason why it occurs and whether it's an ordinary or enlightened being.

Also, traditionally it's said that aside from his rainbow body residing at Wu Tai Shan, an emanation of Vimalamitra also reincarnates - in other words appears to be born in ordinary human fleshly form - in Tibet once every 100 yrs to revitalize the flourishing of Dzogchen there.

Also, about not seeing tulkus of Shakyamuni, Padmasambhava, Garab Dorje, et al, I can only imagine this is a case of emanations of these particular buddhas not being recognized, not of them not emanating here. Achieving parinirvana doesn't mean a buddha can no longer incarnate into a human body. There have been plenty of lamas recognized as direct emanations of Chenrezig, Vajrapani, Manjushri, etc, and various female practitioners as emanations of Vajravarahi, Tara and other female buddhas.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:47 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Pero, "trulku" literally means nirmanakaya or gross emanation body... Tibetans have used a bit of poetic license in referring to former practitioners of a wide range of levels of realization or experience - some not even on the arya level yet - as tulkus. Since nirmanakayas tend to enter this human world through human mothers, quite literally appearing in ordinary flesh bodies, this means they "reincarnate."


But Brian, we are not talking about beings of various levels of realization, we're talling about full blown Buddhas.

Also, traditionally it's said that aside from his rainbow body residing at Wu Tai Shan, an emanation of Vimalamitra also reincarnates - in other words appears to be born in ordinary human fleshly form - in Tibet once every 100 yrs to revitalize the flourishing of Dzogchen there.


Also, about not seeing tulkus of Shakyamuni, Padmasambhava, Garab Dorje, et al, I can only imagine this is a case of emanations of these particular buddhas not being recognized, not of them not emanating here.


Firstly let me say that I think it's best to just simply ignore claims of Tulkuship by Tibetans. However let's go with it. I still don't agree. If Tibetans can recognize all sorts of tulkus, how come they are unable to recognize such great ones? If we assume they can indeed recognize tulkus (or even occasionally recognize a real tulku) then it can only follow that they didn't recognize tulkus of Shakyamuni, Garab Dorje etc. because there are no tulkus of them. Why are there no tulkus of theirs? Because they're Buddhas. Tulkus are bodhisatvas.
The other option of course is that they can't recognize tulkus at all in which case all this discussion is moot.

There have been plenty of lamas recognized as direct emanations of Chenrezig, Vajrapani, Manjushri, etc, and various female practitioners as emanations of Vajravarahi, Tara and other female buddhas.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:38 am

Pero, what I was saying is that "tulku" just means nirmanakaya, one of the three bodies of a buddha. The reason I stated that was because although we most often we see the word used to refer to rebirths of practitioners of various levels, it most directly refers to the gross, material form taken on by a buddha to guide beings who can only perceive the gross material. How do they appear here? Through a human mother, appearing to incarnate the same way an ordinary being would. They can, apparently, just materialize here like Padmasambhava is said to have in the most widely know version of his life story, but they very often are born here. Shakyamuni was born here from his mother's womb, and according to Vajrayana he was a buddha long before appearing to attain buddhahood in that incarnation. The Dalai Lamas and Karmapas are said to be emanations of Chenrezig, and Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo was said to be an "emanation" of Vimalamitra, and how did they each get to this world? Through their mothers' wombs like you and I. The difference is those masters' stainless enlightened wisdom and compassion, versus our karma and ignorance, not the mode of birth. So I can't see what sense there is in thinking one can't use the word reincarnation when talking about the womb births of buddha emanations.

Anyway, I don't personally put a whole lot of stock in the tulku system either, because what causes faith in me is the wisdom and compassion I witness in a teacher. That's what inspires me to aspire to become like them, not the fact that some other lamas claimed that they are such and such master or bodhisattva. I'm sure there have been and still are masters who can actually recognize authentic tulkus, and that there have been those who maybe could not... or maybe they felt they had a good reason to falsely recognize beings as tulkus at certain times for some skillful means... It's not important to me, so I just kind of put it out of my mind like "eh, that's none of my business."

Now, as for the question of why we don't see lamas recognized as nirmanakaya emanations of Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje? I certainly don't think it's because Shakyamuni and Garab Dorje don't send emanations here. After all, this Saha world system is said to actually be Shakyamuni's pure land, though we can't see that because of our karmic perception. But I have no idea why no emanations of Shakyamuni or Garab Dorje or Vajrasattva or Padmasambhava or Medicine Buddha are recognized. Emanations of Manjushri, Vajrapani, Chenrezig, Vajravarahi, etc certainly have been recognized through history. The only recognized emanation of Shakyamuni I can think of throughout history has been Padmasambhava. Who knows why that is.
Pema Rigdzin
 
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby heart » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:04 am

Some of the most extraordinary people I met had the title Tulku. Among them is my root Guru who also told me that among those who have the title Tulku there are some that are just having the name Tulku, some that there is some karmic connection with the source of the Tulku and some that are real Tulkus. Anyway, some in our lineage have been Tulkus of someone else and emanations of Vimalamitra at the same time. I think that when they say emanation of Vimalamitra they feel that Vimalamitras qualities are visible in a person, it is not the same as a Tulku. There are no Tulkus of Vimalamitra or Padmasambhava or the Buddha because they attained full enlightenment. Someone with a rainbow body can appear everywhere, even in Boston or Stockholm or both places at the same time, without taking birth. A Tulku is someone who is realized enough to carry this realization to their next life, they embody the three kayas. This is my understanding. It is obvious that the Tibetans themselves are prone to exaggerated expressions of faith that might muddle the whole concept considerably. The concepts are unclear and often overlapping.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3095
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby mmm » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:38 am

Hi, in Tibet the recognition of a tulku has become more cultural and economical issue then spiritual. Of course a tulku of a great saint can attract many offerings and sponsors for the monastery. Many practictioners with outstanding qualities are recognized to be a tulku for the purpose of having a better name or credit. Also many people are claimed to be recognized by well known Rinpoche after he or she had passed away. We westerners are rather sceptical towards phenomenas such as a tulku of a master who said he is not going to be reborn or a master who attained rainbow body.
mmm
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:10 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby ngodrup » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:30 am

Perhaps the more technically correct term in English
would be "emanation." Some high Lamas are not
called Tulkus in the west but emanations-- since their
incarnational lineage is not active within, for example,
a particular monastery.
ngodrup
 
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:58 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby narraboth » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:10 pm

I think we shouldn't use our own definition to limit how Tibetan Buddhists apply a Tibetan term in their system.

As people mentioned, trul ku can mean emenation or reincarnation, or kind of both.
In Tibetan Buddhism, the term has been limited under the reincarnation system.
However, we shouldn't limit ourselves with the idea of 'reincarnation' in English; it still can mean emenation, otherwise Khyentse Wangpo can not have five or 25 trul ku, Khyentse Wangpo can not be the co-incarnation of many masters either.

I disagree with the saying like 'since a mahasiddha is a Jalupa, he can't have a trulku; pranirvana has no rebirth... '
That sounds like a misunderstanding. why?

1. Even when a master didn't show rainbow body, it doesn't mean that he or she didn't attain pranirvana. Otherwise Khyentse Rinpoche (K Wangpo, K chokgyi Lodro and Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche) didn't attain the supreme achievement. There is no such a thing that 'rainbow body siddhas are higher than non-rainbow body masters: rainbow body siddhas attained buddhahood and non-rainbow body masters don't.' It's not like this. I think people have discussed about it in rainbow body thread. I can't compare great beings' achievement, as I said an ant can't compare the height of two mountains, however I don't believe Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo is less enlightened than masters who dissolve their bodies into light just because Khyentse Rinpoche didn't show that. If Khyentse can have trulkus, why Jalupa can't?

2. In Dzogchen, when siddha passes his body into either small atoms and disappears, he or she can effortlessly generate limitless emenation, we all agree that, right? Yes, masters who attain pranirvana have no 'samsaric rebirth', but that doesn't mean he or she can't appear in form of human rebirth, at least in Mahayana's POV.

3. My lama told me that there are different kinds of 'trulku', some of them are the only reincarnation, such as HH.dalai lama or Karmapa (in most of cases), who are exactly the masters come again (although they can still have other emenations in various forms); some of trulkus are emenations, one master can have many trulkus, many masters can be one trulku; the rest are 'blessed' trulku, a high quality being is blessed by a great master's emenation and represent that master. This kind of trulku is expected to pratice diligently and also attain enlightenment in the end, but it can be a bit tricky sometimes. Someone asked Jigmed Lingpa, 'if a trulku is emenation, he doesn't need to study?' Jigmed Lingpa says: 'if he doesn't study, there would be a danger that he falls.'

Finally, Vimalamitra does have his 'trulku', such as great Khenpo Ngachung. Indeed people don't say that he's a 'Vimalamitra trulku', but reading his 13 past lives history (which is claimed by himself), you will find many great names that you don't think should have a 'trulku'. Was Khenpo Ngachung lying? surely not.
Ju Mipham Rinpoche claimed by himself that he won't have a reincarnation before his passing. But his trulkus are still recognised by great masters such as Penor Rinpoche. Some masters indicated that Khen. Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche is actually more a Mipham Rinpoche's trulku, although he is Sorgya terton's trulku. Great masters see things with their wisdom, and we can't really say anything when we don't have the wisdom.
narraboth
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:18 pm

Re: Nyala Pema duddul's Tulku

Postby Pero » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:17 pm

Sorry for returning to this thread so late.

Pema Rigdzin wrote:The difference is those masters' stainless enlightened wisdom and compassion, versus our karma and ignorance, not the mode of birth. So I can't see what sense there is in thinking one can't use the word reincarnation when talking about the womb births of buddha emanations.


IMO then it's not a "reincarnation" but an "incarnation". Maybe that's just semantics.

Heart wrote:I think that when they say emanation of Vimalamitra they feel that Vimalamitras qualities are visible in a person, it is not the same as a Tulku.


Interesting point.

Narraboth wrote:Khyentse Wangpo can not be the co-incarnation of many masters either.


I think "co-incarnations" are complete nonsense.

Narraboth wrote:however I don't believe Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo is less enlightened than masters who dissolve their bodies into light just because Khyentse Rinpoche didn't show that. If Khyentse can have trulkus, why Jalupa can't?


I thought JKW did achieve rainbow body? But anyway you have a point. Though you have to assume that those masters were indeed fully enlightened. Which is something we can't know for sure, since like you said an ant can't compare the height of two mountains haha.

Ju Mipham Rinpoche claimed by himself that he won't have a reincarnation before his passing. But his trulkus are still recognised by great masters such as Penor Rinpoche.


Heh...

Anyway, I also spoke to Namdrol about those who achieved rainbow bodies having rebirth and he too said that in the tantras it says they can have a non-afflictive rebirth. This however begged the question if such a one is reborn what's he like? I didn't get an answer on that but my thinking is if a full blown Buddha chooses to take rebirth then he should be a full blown Buddha when he is born. Studying, practice and stuff shouldn't be necessary. Heck if in a previous life he achieved rainbow body if you set him on fire in this one he shouldn't burn. So with that, I still don't believe there is any who achieve rainbow body that take rebirth.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Next

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: asunthatneversets, Fruitzilla, Hieros Gamos, Norwegian, Sherab Dorje and 21 guests

>