YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby SDC » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:37 pm


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:41 pm


User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby SDC » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:49 pm


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:03 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:14 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:16 am

But may I suggest if some form of warning label is seen as warranted that is is just made part of the terms of service?!


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:17 am

Greetings,

[please note: this isn't pointed at anyone in particular...]

If people like a particular discussion, they can read or participate as they wish. If people don't like a particular discussion, they can opt out of it. I've never really understood how that's a problem, or why its worth complaining about... it is simply the nature of the world isn't it?

Not everyone is interested in the same things and not everyone sees things the same way, so it kinda goes without saying that different people will be able to find different positives and negatives in certain discussions. To me, it's actually the act of complaining about the facts that not everyone sees things exactly like us or behaves according to our personal ideals, which is the most unproductive thing of all. It is what it is, and we cannot control the universe, so why place the burden of one's happiness and contentedness at the feet of others? Why say, "I cannot be content unless you change" - when one could just strive to be content! Do not allow the metta recitation of "may I be able to protect my own happiness" to be spoken in vain.

As Ghandi said, "be the change you want to see in the world". To paraphrase some modern Theravada teachers... "If you can fix it, fix it - if you can't, what good comes of worrying about it?". Or as the Buddha said, "Mind is the forerunner of all dhammas"... so stand up and own it yourself - man up (or woman up, as applicable) and be awesome rather than be the victim. You can cover the world in carpet, or you can learn to wear shoes. :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:08 am

Very True, Retro,

It's certainly a good idea to ignore things that one finds or uninteresting or not helpful.

However, it can be difficult to maintain a good discussion when the conversation is interrupted by negative comments. I think that this is behind some of the concerns expressed here and other threads.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:20 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby SDC » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:25 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:25 am


User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby Ben » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:28 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby SDC » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:29 am


User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby SDC » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:31 am


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby alan... » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:22 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:03 am

Greetings Alan...,

This Dhamma Wheel site was founded upon a principle that its membership would be autonomous adults, and that they should be treated as such. This means respecting their rights to hold certain views, to manage their own spiritual lives, to manage their own learning, and to act in their own best interests.

This is in contrast to a site that preceded Dhamma Wheel called E-Sangha - you may have heard of it? At E-Sangha, the management enforced and mandated adherence to particular views, and sought to "protect" newcomers to Buddhism from what it often arbitrarily decided to be Wrong View or "adhamma" merely by virtue of it not conforming to their view of orthodoxy. This resulted in all manner of dedicated Buddhist practitioners, and just good decent people in general, being alienated, bullied, and often banned by the site administrators for little reason other than that their views were in conflict with what the management had deemed orthodox and acceptable.

We don't have any of that Dhamma policing here. The way we go about it is to have different sub-forums for different purposes - much like how in a house you have both a kitchen and a toilet and while each are used for their correct and intended purposes, things will more or less go well. Moderators moderate according to the Terms Of Service and the parameters for each forum. By that means, people can indeed pick and choose what "rooms they enter" based on what is of interest to them personally. When they enter a room, they know what it is about, and what is appropriate in the context of that room - the power to decide what suits their requirements lies with them. If they're a beginner they can go to the Discovering Theravada forum that was mentioned earlier and know that they will be shielded from heterodox views if that is what they feel they need. If they want to know only what the ancient Theravada commentators said the Dhamma, there are special places for that too.

When moderators and administrators challenge the views and perspectives of others in discussion at this forum they do so as fellow forum members only, and not in the capacity of forum staff. Once we step over that line and start to regard ourselves as "teachers", "experts" or "defenders of the Dhamma", problems invariably arise for the very reason that such positioning oversteps the line of respect for the autonomy of fellow members to do, say and believe what they think appropriate, within the bounds of the Terms of Service. We don't need to defend the Dhamma, because we respect the intelligence of members enough that they can sort out for themselves what is right and what is wrong - seriously, who are we to tell them? What makes us so special that we should take it upon ourselves to mandate certain views? This underlying principle of respect for our fellow membership is important as it underpins what makes the culture at this forum probably the most successful I have seen on any Buddhist forum on the Internet. If members aren't treated with respect by those who run the place - they'll sense it and will respond in kind. The respect and the egalitarian spiritual friendship that can naturally arise in the absence of forced respect and hierarchies is invaluable.

That might all sound rather hi-falutin, abstract and disconnected from what you're saying, but once we start taking it upon ourselves to formally define at this site what is and is not Dhamma, or what is and is not Right View, it opens up a veritable Pandora's Box of trouble... one that I strive to avoid at all cost. Speaking for myself, whilst I don't formally moderate or administer this site or Dharma Wheel (i.e. this site's Mahayana equivalent), I do take it upon myself to ensure that the forums continue to be managed in such a way that the founding principles that have made them successful are not compromised. I have seen enough to know that whilst your suggestions are well meaning, it is better to publish Dhamma information on sites dedicated to such a purpose (e.g. Access To Insight, Just Be Good, Buddhanet) and to keep forums focused on their primary function of allowing people to openly and respectfully discuss the Dhamma, without coersion and without the arbitrary censorship of views that are relevant in the forum in which they are spoken.

One site needn't be all things to all people - it just needs to know what its about, where it fits in the broader context, and fulfil its role in the best way it possibly can... and very often that involves giving people the freedom to debunk something traditionally established in the name of the Dhamma, because, who knows... the person challenging orthodoxy might actually be right. People should not grant an intellectual monopoly to anyone, let alone to a forum of netizens they have never met - if they do then more fool them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby appicchato » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:41 am

:thumbsup:

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby alan... » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:07 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:18 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
Posts: 10648
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: on the constant debunking of the dhamma on this forum

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:49 am

Image





Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine